DK's and religion

[Behrens]

I can show you a picture of the factory' date=' then I can take you on a trip to the factory, then once you start working full time on FL we'll be able to drive out in your new Mazda. How about it? We know humans build things, you see evidence of human construction in a car. You have no way to observe how god does anything or has done anything. [/quote']

I am fully aware that my Mazda was made in a factory in Japan. I am willing to accept the evidence of others. I merely brought it up as a point that we live on evidence provided by others.

Since god has "talked" to you' date=' then I can't argue with that! Can you ask him to ring me up one of these days?[/quote']

I have no power over Him. I recommend reading His Word, and asking Him to get in touch.

If it's so easy to define and to quantify/qualify: Whats more complex? Jupiter or a mouse? The universe or the molecular structure of an element?

Please explain to me what criteria you used to reach your conclusions if you can.

A mouse is more complex than Jupiter. Size is not an indication of complexity. I used the criteria of number of requisite parts and complexity of the action. (I think we can both agree that assembling an amino from its component parts is harder than burning while spinning in a circle)

Also irreducible complexity is not true. Check out

It's a long, albeit interesting presentation by Ken Miller(a christian evolutionist) on the topic of intelligent design, towards the middle he talks about irreducible complexity. I'm sure you and all other readers will find it interesting.

I know that some do not believe in irreducible complexity. This is their choice. We all have faith in different things. Your faith is that nature explains everything.

You know this? Please explain to me how you reached the fact that god is timeless(or that he even exists, but I get the feeling we're just going to run around in circles)? Fact is, we don't even understand time completely yet. Where is this timeless space? Have you observed it?

You claimed that you used reason to reach your truth. I'm still waiting, though we probably won't get anywhere with these posts. There are entire web forums on such topics and we might as well agree to disagree.

I do not KNOW this any more than I know anything else. I know there is a Creator G-d who was the Prime Cause, and calls himself the Alpha and Omega. I used reason to deduce that he lives beyond time, as it is the best explanation my mind can come up with. This does not mean I am correct, merely using my knowledge to the best of my ability.

One final question: Is the earth 6' date='000 or 10,000 years old in your opinion?[/quote']

About 4.6 billion.

What, you expected differently?

[Pali]

Deists believe in a god who started the universe in action, then stepped back and let things unfold without interfering.

Wages and I are still waiting for that explanation of your logical reasoning for believing in God, Behrens. ^_~

[Lexi]

While we're on this about religion anyway, sometimes I consider nature to be a force, or entity, by itself - although not necessarily the power behind creation. Nature is so simple, and it is so complex, gentle and fierce. Everything is connected, forming a delicate balance that has room for everyone and everything. Marvelous, in other words.

[Pali]

While we're on this about religion anyway' date=' sometimes I consider nature to be a force, or entity, by itself - although not necessarily the power behind creation. Nature is so simple, and it is so complex, gentle and fierce. Everything is connected, forming a delicate balance that has [b']room for everyone and everything. Marvelous, in other words.

Tell that to the 99.9% of species that used to exist on Earth but are now extinct. Nature is definitely powerful, but don't mistake its complexity and power for an actual being.

[Behrens]

Deists believe in a god who started the universe in action, then stepped back and let things unfold without interfering.

Wages and I are still waiting for that explanation of your logical reasoning for believing in God, Behrens. ^_~

I have given my reasons several times. You both reject them based on assumptions I do not share. You assume natural causes first. I assume divinity, possibly acting through natural causes. Until the difference of assumption is changed, you will regard my logical reasons as fallacy.

[Pali]

Well, I assume that when the physical (visible and testable) fully explains the event, there is no need to invoke the supernatural (invisible and untestable). I have yet to be shown a case where the physical fails.

[Lexi]

Re Pali:

Perhaps nature had a purpose of extincting those species, or they had played their part in Her creation (as in her creation of that specific specie). I don't know. What bothers me more, though, is how man has begun to extinct species, for no good purpose, really. That's frightening.

[Pali]

It's not like humanity is the first species to wipe out another. Single events like the meteor impact 65 million years ago have wiped out the vast majority of life on Earth. Species destruction means nothing to the world. The Earth will far outlast humanity or any other species that exists on it now.

[Behrens]

Well' date=' I assume that when the physical fully explains the event, there is no need to invoke the supernatural. I have yet to be shown a case where the physical fails.[/quote']

The physical cannot explain the beginning of time. Not even Stephen Hawking has a cohesive theory for it, and it has been his life work to find.

I don't believe the physical can account for many of the cases you have already dismissed based on your belief in the physical, but you've made it clear that your faith in it is very strong.

[Lexi]

Really, Pali? We are generally thinking that we are minigods, and can do whatever we want with this planet. I'm no different than anyone else, but my conscience will be much more at ease if I distance myself from that every now and then. That indifferance is a big part of the problems in our world.

Ohh.. Back to the topic of Christian religion again.. Sometimes, life on this planet is considered the only 'hell' of our existance. I think there's a good point in that reasoning.

EDIT:

Actually, I am too tired to continue this conversation. My spelling and grammar is turning worse by the minute, not to mention the content of my posts.

Good night, people. It's been fun.

And behave.

[Pali]

You need to read up on multidimensional physics, my friend. Divine intervention is far from the only theory for the beginning of 4-dimensional space-time. I read a paper a few months ago (that I believe Hawking co-authored, but my memory could be failing me here) postulating a 5th dimensional hypersphere perfectly consistent with current understandings of relativity and quantum mechanics that explained the existence of the universe quite well. If I can find it, I'll post a link, though without a solid grounding in both those theories it won't make too much sense.

As for personal experiences, you're quite right that I do not accept those as evidence. You claim you speak to God. 25% of the population hears voices of some kind according to recent studies (thank you Psych 160). If I told you I spoke to Zeus, you would respond with the exact skepticism that I'm giving you. There are dozens of other possible explanations for every religious experience you have had, and many of them would explain it perfectly well without going beyond the physical.

[WarriorCleric]

You need to read up on multidimensional physics' date=' my friend. Divine intervention is far from the only theory for the beginning of 4-dimensional space-time. I read a paper a few months ago (that I believe Hawking co-authored) postulating a 5th dimensional hypersphere perfectly consistent with current understandings of relativity and quantum mechanics. If I can find it, I'll post a link, though without a solid grounding in both those theories it won't make too much sense.[/quote']

Read about string theory, they've got upto 26.

WC

[Pali]

*nods* Exactly my point. There are tons of possible explanations that do not invoke the divine.

[Behrens]

*nods* Exactly my point. There are tons of possible explanations that do not invoke the divine.

Which makes my point. You are eager for any explanation that does not invoke the divine, even if it can never be proven. You first assume that the divine does not exist, then demand its proof.

[WarriorCleric]

Maybe it does? String Theory, and the Theory of everything have not be proven yet, so why can't their be a divine aspect to it? Quantum Mechanics does the impossible.

WC

[Pali]

Which makes my point. You are eager for any explanation that does not invoke the divine' date=' even if it can never be proven. You first assume that the divine does not exist, then demand its proof.[/quote']

That's correct. I assume the divine does not exist until I have proof that it does. I'm a skeptic. I will assume elves and faeries do not exist until I have proof they do as well.

[Raargant]

The word here that is really the issue, from what I've seen, is this: falsifiable.

Pali and other skeptics accept any argument besides 'God did it', because those arguments are inherently falsifiable; they are accepted on a provisional basis, pending more evidence. You can accept the argument that the world is flat; you can accept the argument that the world is round. But this acceptance is based upon facts, and facts can disprove these theories, and result in loss of that acceptance.

God's existence and God's creation is inherently unfalsifiable.

[Pali]

Well put, Raar.

[Behrens]

But beginning of time theories are not falsifiable, because they are post-event, and have no predictive powers.

The Big Bang is mostly accepted because it had predicted properties, and the universe met most of those properties. Multi-verse theory is not falsifiable, unless someone real soon comes up with a multi-verse viewer that I don't know about, and therefore is an article of faith.

And Pali, if I found you a trustworthy person, and you told me you were hearing from Zeus in earnest, I would believe you. I believe in the spiritual, remember?

[spiegel06]

Also' date=' Berhens, please tell me how to discover this "spiritual" feeling you speak of. If it is so ever present, then what can I do to find it? What did you do to find it? How did you come to your conclusion? I am genuinely interested, if there is a god then I trully would like to know about it.[/quote']

I do not believe in "God" but I believe there is some entity that is like "God", that might sound contradictory. I can not deny the pressence of something. You might state what I am about to say as coincidence or not I dont care. I have been driving my truck for about 6 years I never once had an accident, came many times but I was able to avoid it, I drove my moms car one time I got into an accident. The only difference is this, in my truck I have a keychain of a guardian angel hanging from the rear view mirror and not in my moms car. As I stated call it coincidence or not you can not as many stated before understand the feeling until it happens to yourself. The same goes for Athiehts, people who believe can not understand the perspective of them.

[Pali]

But beginning of time theories are not falsifiable, because they are post-event, and have no predictive powers.

The Big Bang is mostly accepted because it had predicted properties, and the universe met most of those properties. Multi-verse theory is not falsifiable, unless someone real soon comes up with a multi-verse viewer that I don't know about, and therefore is an article of faith.

And Pali, if I found you a trustworthy person, and you told me you were hearing from Zeus in earnest, I would believe you. I believe in the spiritual, remember?

And assuming our technology ever gets to the level where we can measure multidimensional space, those theories would be falsifiable as well. Any new evidence that does not fit in with those theories could falsify them. Evidence in 4-dimensional space that we don't have yet could falsify them. "God did it" is forever unfalsifiable.

As for believing me that I hear from Zeus... you would believe that Zeus exists then? How about Shiva? Vishnu? The Flying Spaghetti Monster?

[Pali]

I do not believe in "God" but I believe there is some entity that is like "God"' date=' that might sound contradictory. I can not deny the pressence of something. You might state what I am about to say as coincidence or not I dont care. I have been driving my truck for about 6 years I never once had an accident, came many times but I was able to avoid it, I drove my moms car one time I got into an accident. The only difference is this, in my truck I have a keychain of a guardian angel hanging from the rear view mirror and not in my moms car. As I stated call it coincidence or not you can not as many stated before understand the feeling until it happens to yourself. The same goes for Athiehts, people who believe can not understand the perspective of them.[/quote']

People always notice when events like this occur, but they forget about all the times that they don't. You're ignoring all the people who have guardian angels in their cars who DO get into accidents. You're ignoring all the other factors in this accident, such as where you were, when, who else was there, familiarity with the vehicle, etc. I met a guy the other day who was convinced that the golden eagle feather on the back of his bike would prevent it from ever being stolen, so he doesn't lock it up. Just because it hasn't been stolen doesn't mean that the feather's protecting it, it just means that someone with the desire to steal his bike hasn't wandered by yet.

[Behrens]

And assuming our technology ever gets to the level where we can measure multidimensional space, those theories would be falsifiable as well. Any new evidence that does not fit in with those theories could falsify them. "God did it" is forever unfalsifiable.

As for believing me that I hear from Zeus... you would believe that Zeus exists then? How about Shiva? Vishnu? The Flying Spaghetti Monster?

So you admit that at this time, you are living in faith of an unfalsifiable theory (eventually maybe falsifiable is not falsifiable).

As I stated earlier, I believe there are many spiritual forces. I believe that some were named Zeus, Shiva, Vishnu, et al. I've never heard of anyone that I have conversed with who had met the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Of course, I've seen lots of flying spaghetti in my day, but none was quite monsterous.

[Pali]

So you admit that at this time' date=' you are living in faith of an unfalsifiable theory (eventually maybe falsifiable is not falsifiable).[/quote']

Not at all. I never stated that I am certain the theory is true. I'm saying that it's one of many possible theories that are consistent with a physical universe and do not take the (in my view) unnecessary leap of assuming something beyond it.

As I stated earlier, I believe there are many spiritual forces. I believe that some were named Zeus, Shiva, Vishnu, et al. I've never heard of anyone that I have conversed with who had met the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Of course, I've seen lots of flying spaghetti in my day, but none was quite monsterous.

Fair enough. But then, what makes the Christian god superior to them? What beyond what you read in the Bible and hear when he speaks to you tells you that he is in any way better than them?

[Behrens]

Not at all. I never stated that I am certain the theory is true. I'm saying that it's one of many possible theories that are consistent with a physical universe and do not take the (in my view) unnecessary leap of assuming something beyond it.

But in this case, your faith is in the fact that there is no G-d, regardless of which source theory you believe.

Fair enough. But then' date=' what makes the Christian god superior to them? What beyond what you read in the Bible and hear when he speaks to you tells you that he is in any way better than them?[/quote']

This is quite a long answer. I believe that He is the Creator G-d. Therefore, all other spiritual beings are inferior to him, and His requirements are superior. Hierarchy then requires that any spiritual being which gives the same message as He does is not to be worshipped, but is merely an agent pointing to Him, and any spiritual being which gives a different message is a sabatour and rebel who is to be rebuked and ignored.

Worship is due the Creator only, as thanks for the blessings of being created, but not to any other created being, for all created beings are equal in their being created, although not in their stature as created beings. Therefore, as in Scripture, whenever an angel appears, it requires that it not be worshipped. Indeed, the angels worship G-d as well (those that did not reject him and fall)