Single/Main character long term investment

Hi all

Disclaimer: As usual, this is in the context and perspective of a new member of the community with very limited knowledge about the in-game content, social structures (cabals) and all that.

I have seen multiple signs on the forum that suggest there little to no incentive for long term investment on a character.

While re-playability of content is a plus, and the RP diversity that comes from a new character, there is also value in long term investment on a character.

As far as I have seen, there is little incentive to venture to really hard areas, and there is little reason to invest on a character.

I have seen two methods of advancing a character in the med/long run, which was required to beat the hardest areas of the respective muds. One of these was full PK mud, another was not, but both essentially boiled down to the same thing - become way more powerful in order to beat your opponents who were also becoming more powerful, and the new areas that were increasingly harder, with a difficulty level significantly outpacing the drop quality (50% more dificult for 15% better drops).

Approach A - remort cycles

A character could "remort" back to level 1 by beating a very hard area that required full gear to be beat. On the last room of the gauntlet, you could perform an action that would bring you to level 1, waste away all your gear, and get the equivalent to 2 training points. This could be infinitely repeated. This was a 102 level system, where a "cycle" was not doable in a single digit hour count, was something at best a 50h time investment. Would people be up to spend 50h leveling again in order to get 2 training points? You bet they did. Repeatedly. Lets look at a warrior 50 with 1000 life. Tmaking that warrior 50% bigger (500 HP) means 50 training points at 10 HP each, so lets say 25 remorts to get 50% more health.

Approach B - DM investment

I don't recall what DM stood for. Divine Malformation, lets pretend it was. You could amass a large pile of gold and a special item that would grant you one training worth of HP or Mana or Move, or a base Stat (not over race/class cap). The death penalty on this mud included full gear loss if corpse not recovered within a given time (a couple hours IRL) and the loss of a random base stat, so recovering your base stats was a thing. Lets say you build something similar here, with a cost of lets say 300k plus a drop from somewhere really hard to get 1 training. That would mean 50 times this investment to get 50% more hp on the same warrior of the previous example. 50 x 300k is 15 million gold.

Someone willing to do this should not be prevented from harnessing this power. Long term characters would start to develop. Harder areas would be possible. Group content would be not only possible, but welcomed. Imagine now a "top end hard monster" has 5k health, -30 all savs, -500 AC and 60 hr/dr. This hard monster would drop a 10 point budget item, lets say +30 HP, +3 HR, +3DR, -10AC. Now you can make a monster 50% harder!! and give it a 12 point budget item with rotdeath. Would not be soloable. But would be great incentive to either group up, or develop your character beyond just leveling to 50 and getting a semi decent set. Would this cause power creep? Absolutely. But is that a bad thing? I don't think it is. A character that is online enough to amass 15 mil gold is for sure someone very visible and active in the community. Not something that can be done logging 4h a week. growing the player base is important, but also giving reasons for the current player base to actively use their characters is also positive. All in all, what matters is how many people you see when you type "who", when you are looking either for help or targets. Would this be counter RP? Not necessarily. I see no issue in having a Cabal leader who has been played 1000 hours in the last couple years, and is 50% bigger than a recent 50 of the same class/race. Rest assure the opposing cabal would find a member that would work towards the goal of matching his power.

(this is in the context where perma death can be somehow delayed with a challenging method that decreses the death count)

I would strongly suggest that there are multiple reasons for long-term character investment.  One of them is RP rewards.  There is an entire scheme of RP edges.  Each of these while by themselves do not make a character OP, when compounded they can add up.  However, you are not just gaining 1000 RP points over two weeks to be able to fast-track being stronger.  It takes time and investment in RP.

Secondly, cabals and cabal promotions do make a major difference.  Both of these have time components to them and do indeed increase a particular characters strength and sometimes diminishes weaknesses.   A Savant invoker can be considerably more potent than a non-caballed invoker.  A Knight Sigil paladin can be incredibly stronger than a non-cabal paladin.  However, you have to put in both the time investment, RP investment and dedication to see those promotions and the skills that come along with them.

Thirdly, there is definitely reason to go to these end-game areas and the equivalent rewards can be astounding.  However, one of the main reasons I have witnessed people do not go are:  A).  They are not easy and quick.  B). People do not actually know how to do them or sometimes even how to enter them.  C).  There is a significant risk to dying inside, which costs some characters more than others.  (Some equipment dissolves on death.  Some classes lose power just by dying like Lich and Dark Knights).

I understand where you stand. Fair enough. Cabal dynamics and RP edges are not something I account for, since I have not interacted with.

What I have interacted with are:

• forum signatures with long lists of abandoned characters

• Saw someone else suggesting a 3 rank system for cabals, which I think this day in age given the player count is pretty much mandatory. The max I have seen was 2 people of the same clan logged in at the same time. Makes little sense to me to have 7 ranks to a cabal, when there is never ever 3 people online of the same cabal.

• on another of my posts saw Lexi listing two seemingly retired characters with about 200 hours, which I am growing to assume is the average lifespan of a character before it is abandoned

If the reward is worth the risk, people will go to the areas. If there are more and stronger people online to group with, the risk will drop, so the reward becomes a better deal. Keep in mind my perspective is biased by my lack of time in the game. I am into trading (stocks, options, FX, that sort of thing) and there is the saying that "Grinding time in the market is more important that trying timing the market". Similar here. There is plenty that my perspective simply won't allow me to understand.

I am the first to say my opinion is from a limited perspective, but still. It is a perspective.

14 minutes ago, Grommash said:

I understand where you stand. Fair enough. Cabal dynamics and RP edges are not something I account for, since I have not interacted with.

What I have interacted with are:

• forum signatures with long lists of abandoned characters

• Saw someone else suggesting a 3 rank system for cabals, which I think this day in age given the player count is pretty much mandatory. The max I have seen was 2 people of the same clan logged in at the same time. Makes little sense to me to have 7 ranks to a cabal, when there is never ever 3 people online of the same cabal.

• on another of my posts saw Lexi listing two seemingly retired characters with about 200 hours, which I am growing to assume is the average lifespan of a character before it is abandoned

If the reward is worth the risk, people will go to the areas. If there are more and stronger people online to group with, the risk will drop, so the reward becomes a better deal. Keep in mind my perspective is biased by my lack of time in the game. I am into trading (stocks, options, FX, that sort of thing) and there is the saying that "Grinding time in the market is more important that trying timing the market". Similar here. There is plenty that my perspective simply won't allow me to understand.

I am the first to say my opinion is from a limited perspective, but still. It is a perspective.

The ranks I have seen more as a limiting system like rare/unique items.  Some of those cabal abilities are REALLY strong for some classes.  The reason for cabal ranks isn't so that people will be at different ranks as up to Trusted is obtainable by everyone who gets inducted.  It is the Elder and Leader abilities that in some cases are super strong and sought after.

As far as the areas go, it is all three factors.  I would gladly take people on trips myself if people were willing to risk death.  The problem in with some of those areas like Beyond the Portal, the chances of death for those not equipped enough to handle it is really high.  There are even some areas I do not know well, so we would be risking them together.  So, going to end game areas I personally have seen less of it not being rewarding and more about people either not having the time to do them or the knowledge.  (an example:  Getting into Beyond the Portal is different if you are good aligned or evil aligned.  Neutral can do either.  But, learning where the quest starts to enter it takes figuring it out or someone else telling you)

There is power the player obtains from playing the game and making an effort to learn its mechanics. That in itself is an unquestionable advantage, and a well deserved one.

There is also power obtained from participating in the social dynamics of the game, like the RP and the cabals. Again, that is fair.

I am talking about adding another "meta progression" pathway on top. You may argue that **current **systems are enough to beat the **current **content. Given my lack of knowledge, I will gladly take your word for it. Adding a single character investment path on top would promote active play. Maybe we would see the return of past champions that stopped coming because there was no reason to. If there is a new meta progression, people will want to climb that ladder as well. If nothing else, to keep up with the competition in PvP, and to allow access to potentially new areas of increased difficulty.

The mud may be good as it is. That does not mean it can not be made better. The key metric to whoever (already) plays a game, is how much fun the person has playing it, right? But the metric when a person is considering playing a multiplayer game like a mud, the online player count is a key metric. This would unquestionably promote active play.

54 minutes ago, Grommash said:

There is power the player obtains from playing the game and making an effort to learn its mechanics. That in itself is an unquestionable advantage, and a well deserved one.

There is also power obtained from participating in the social dynamics of the game, like the RP and the cabals. Again, that is fair.

I am talking about adding another "meta progression" pathway on top. You may argue that **current **systems are enough to beat the **current **content. Given my lack of knowledge, I will gladly take your word for it. Adding a single character investment path on top would promote active play. Maybe we would see the return of past champions that stopped coming because there was no reason to. If there is a new meta progression, people will want to climb that ladder as well. If nothing else, to keep up with the competition in PvP, and to allow access to potentially new areas of increased difficulty.

The mud may be good as it is. That does not mean it can not be made better. The key metric to whoever (already) plays a game, is how much fun the person has playing it, right? But the metric when a person is considering playing a multiplayer game like a mud, the online player count is a key metric. This would unquestionably promote active play.

I actually value your vantage as a fresh person looking at a game that I have been nostalgic about for 20+ years.  I am also doing my best to point at points that are there that I wonder if you are informed about or have attempted.  I am not saying the game is perfect or could not be improved.  I am trying to point out some things that are there for advancement and further achievements.