PK Logs.

[Pali]

I agree that Halloween Madness reveals things like DIs, but it doesn't reveal the intricacies of mana charge or malform. One of (well, at least, what used to be) the biggest secrets about malforming a weapon is... HOW you do it in the first place. Mana charge... I'm sorry, but you CAN'T learn everything about this in a day of play, even if you start at 50. It took me months to master this skill, learning how to use it and what the downsides are.

Edit: I do, however, have nothing against the idea of revealing eq actions, so long as nothing approaching actual IDs of them are allowed.

[Pali]

Six months' date=' and 2 pinns, Pali. I'm totally [b']not jealous. And it totally hasn't taken me a couple of years or so to get to where I am now either.

*Words in bold, don't really count.

Dey

Well, maybe I'm a fast learner. ^_~ Even so, my point remains that prior players had to learn from experience when they were new, and way back being new was a far worse disadvantage. Why shouldn't new ones now, when things are a lot more balanced?

[Deykari]

Imagine playing counter-strike(or whatever FPS) where you start out with your knife and the only way to get weapons is to find them on the map. You're running around with your knife but keep on getting killed by some nutter who knows how/where to get the Awp.

That's what happens anyway. Then eventually, that new player accidently comes across a shotgun (finds out how skill X works properly), and destroys the AWP guy (some badass Caballer) who was owning him earlier.

Same sort of thing. It takes time and effort to learn the ropes of a game, especially an RPG which takes a little more effort to get into than an FPS.

Why don't we just have a huge sign in the MUD school that tells you the exact directions to every single piece of equipment in the game, plus what their exact affects are? You know, because if we don't do that, it's not fair on the new players who actually have to, *GASP*, go out of their way and locate/identify the pieces.

But wait! That's not enough! Because even though we can find out what 95% of that Ogre Rangers skills do by checking help files, he has a cabal skill that we might not know much about. So, Behrens, if you could, it might be worth starting work on some code that pauses the MUD for everyone, everytime someone encounters a new skill, giving them a detailed breakdown of it's vital stats.

Better yet, let's have an auto-balance scheme. Which is when you PK someone, you get weaker. And when you get PKed, you get stronger. Things will just all balance out.

The point of the game isn't to be thrown in on a level playing field with all of the knowledge needed to progress to elite status from the get go.

Dey

[Anume]

What usually works best is to type who class often and see which of the guys you see there is really doing good. Then ask that guy to give you some advice (weapons, tactics, eq, whatever). Most often you will get it, even from evils, provided they are not your opposite align. Asking Heralds or people who's rp makes them act neutral to all "Where can I find ... ?" also works most of the time. If you find something, lore it, will tell you where it is from. You can gain pretty much all eq knowledge in game. Like I did, like most of the people who have been here for some time did. I don't believe we should start spoonfeeding people to "get more players". If they give up with finding eq already, how will they react by getting fullooted a couple times?

[Shadowmaster]

Just pointing out inconsistencies.

back in 1.0 when cabal skills let regular warmasters drop 1k damage per round without a sweat' date=' where Conclaves could (and were [i']designed to) fight off five opponents at once, and Savants could pop in from anywhere and didn't require +hp eq.

Except during that time, logs were posted (By immortals, no less) that in no way edited cabal powers. Only Conclave's powers were zealously guarded.

It has been the policy of FL for as long as I can remember that PK logs were edited' date=' this staff, the previous and the previous.[/quote']

Which of course makes this statement by Belegriel misinformation. Or he just may not remember a very long time

[Celerity]

Skill in this game boils down to three things, in this order:

1. Speed

Speed can be learned in about two minutes, but most people never really grasp it. It ranges from having a feeling for the movement pulse of the MUD (so you can move at full speed without spamming) to complex triggers/color filters/aliases/macros/sounds that all help you to understand the output faster and/or allow you to put in the input faster. Superior speed is what seperates elite players from good players. This is not hidden on the forum.

2. Area knowledge

This includes things such as mob locations, eq/consumable stats/locations, room layouts/locations, shortcuts, all that stuff. This is the hardest part of the game to learn, and simply takes time. Some people advocate making some **** character and ID everything, while others recommend a more 'natural' approach of just playing. This is the data that is specific to this MUD and allows for general 'strategy' (aka equipping). Superior area knowledge seperates good players from average ones. The important things within this category are hidden on the forum.

3. Class-specific balacing

This is what most people call tactics in the game. This is what players understand as knowing to fly to avoid trip, keep detect invis up, etc. Use this shield against this class, and use this weapon combo against this class. Examining this tells us that invokers, bmgs, and blms tend to be 'strong' classes, while things like healers, bards, and berserkers tend to be 'weak' classes. This knowledge seperates average players from poor ones. The "advanced" things within this category are hidden on the forum.

Now personally, I hate the censorship of important information. This sponsors an elitest information-controlled competitive environment. If I have access to the information, I am likely to be better than you. I believe this approach is encouraging things that are disdained by the staff (such as ooc relations).

The knowledge should be free for all, and then the environment would be -equally- competitive. Rather than fighting for who knows what, you are fighting for the best way to use that information.

To show how it stands now, I can use this analogy:

There are two people writing a paper on classical idealism. Neither person has ANY experience on the topic. For one person, you allow research and the ability to communicate with other people. For the second person, you lock them in a room and give them an abstract from some single source. Which is likely to write the better paper?

Of course this depends on the individuals involved, but I think you can agree that the first person has a huge advantage.

I am one of the people with access to almost all the information in the game. I have experience that dates back to the oldest players/imms, OOC connections..the entire works. Being good in this game shows nothing of my skill, it only shows that I have all the right conditions working for me.

I would much rather that the MUD opened up, and it would be those who actually draw the connections of what is happening that would have the skill.

I really dislike the "cover the game in mist so it looks complex" crap so it takes people years to become good.

Yes Pali, you've had some characters. Are you still in the top 3/4?...do you think everyone can achieve that after six months (if so, why hasn't everyone)?...why exactly SHOULD it take years/months to become skilled at this game? Just because you had to go through it?

[Shadowmaster]

Great post!

Now personally' date=' I hate the censorship of important information. This sponsors an elitest information-controlled competitive environment. If I have access to the information, I am likely to be better than you. I believe this approach is encouraging things that are disdained by the staff (such as ooc relations).[/quote']

This is the entire crux of my argument! Excellent post!

The knowledge should be free for all, and then the environment would be -equally- competitive. Rather than fighting for who knows what, you are fighting for the best way to use that information.

And additionally you nail down why I think the current policy is a bad one! Kudos! I will buy you a beer if I ever run across you IRL

[Goomf]

Skill in this game boils down to three things, in this order:

1. Speed

Speed can be learned in about two minutes, but most people never really grasp it. It ranges from having a feeling for the movement pulse of the MUD (so you can move at full speed without spamming) to complex triggers/color filters/aliases/macros/sounds that all help you to understand the output faster and/or allow you to put in the input faster. Superior speed is what seperates elite players from good players. This is not hidden on the forum.

2. Area knowledge

This includes things such as mob locations, eq/consumable stats/locations, room layouts/locations, shortcuts, all that stuff. This is the hardest part of the game to learn, and simply takes time. Some people advocate making some **** character and ID everything, while others recommend a more 'natural' approach of just playing. This is the data that is specific to this MUD and allows for general 'strategy' (aka equipping). Superior area knowledge seperates good players from average ones. The important things within this category are hidden on the forum.

3. Class-specific balacing

This is what most people call tactics in the game. This is what players understand as knowing to fly to avoid trip, keep detect invis up, etc. Use this shield against this class, and use this weapon combo against this class. Examining this tells us that invokers, bmgs, and blms tend to be 'strong' classes, while things like healers, bards, and berserkers tend to be 'weak' classes. This knowledge seperates average players from poor ones. The important things within this category are hidden on the forum.

Now personally, I hate the censorship of important information. This sponsors an elitest information-controlled competitive environment. If I have access to the information, I am likely to be better than you. I believe this approach is encouraging things that are disdained by the staff (such as ooc relations).

The knowledge should be free for all, and then the environment would be -equally- competitive. Rather than fighting for who knows what, you are fighting for the best way to use that information.

To show how it stands now, I can use this analogy:

There are two people writing a paper on classical idealism. Neither person has ANY experience on the topic. For one person, you allow research and the ability to communicate with other people. For the second person, you lock them in a room and give them an abstract from some single source. Which is likely to write the better paper?

Of course this depends on the individuals involved, but I think you can agree that the first person has a huge advantage.

I am one of the people with access to almost all the information in the game. I have experience that dates back to the oldest players/imms, OOC connections..the entire works. Being good in this game shows nothing of my skill, it only shows that I have all the right conditions working for me.

I would much rather that the MUD opened up, and it would be those who actually draw the connections of what is happening that would have the skill.

I really dislike the "cover the game in mist so it looks complex" crap so it takes people years to become good.

Yes Pali, you've had some characters. Are you still in the top 3/4?...do you think everyone can achieve that after six months (if so, why hasn't everyone)?...why exactly SHOULD it take years/months to become skilled at this game? Just because you had to go through it?

Translation: It's a game where the purpose is to have fun. There is no grading scale, no peer pressure to get a job after you graduate...it's to have fun. If the imms think that doing all that hocus pocus mumbo jumbo and editting logs contributes to the pbase having fun, than they by all means have the necessary logical backing. If they think otherwise and can't adequately back it up, maybe they should think twice.

I have similar connections to Celerity. Not because I played since Beta (my major characters started when Iyorvin was around), but because I knew some of the areas from AR and I knew some people who went to FL from AR. Did I enjoy Terniant? Of course. Not because I had to discover new things, but because I enjoyed the interaction between people and how awesome the prospect of being a demon dkn is.

I guess what I'm asking is that the imms stop viewing this thing as anything else besides a game. I understand that you guys view yourselves as having responsibilities toward the game, but people play it to have fun. For those of you who are just damned addicted to it, take a breather and remember that FL isn't life

[Chromatic]

...I guess what I'm asking is that the imms stop viewing this thing as anything else besides a game. I understand that you guys view yourselves as having responsibilities toward the game' date=' but people play it to have fun. For those of you who are just damned addicted to it, take a breather [b']and remember that FL isn't life

::gasp:: Isn't life? That can't be true!!!:eek:

[Celerity]

Oh, I'd also like to point out that just because you have the information available to you, doesn't mean you are an 'elite' or even 'good' at the topic. Wikipedia offers a LOT of information, but how many topics are you good at?

Just because you have all the forumla and conceptual data of physics does not mean you will suddenly be equal to a ph.D in physics, you know?

Free information will not equalize the players. It simply equalizes the playing FIELD.

[WagesofSin]

A thought has occured to me: What is preventing us players from revealing this information anyway? Can't people just set up a fan site, "Everything you wanted to know about FL(but were afraid to ask)" and stick up the information on there? Sure, it won't be on the main site, but so what?

[corpsestomp]

I understand your point' date=' but don't be shocked when one day you look up and realize you've been fighting the same 10 players over, and over, and over, and over again, because it is likely that [b']no new player is going to spend years learning a text based MUD just to catch up to those of you who have played/fought every class. In the rare event that they do, chances are, the MUD will have lost one or more experienced players over that same period of time, and the net result is less skilled players.

If you have any desire of increasing the playerbase, it may be prudent to consider actually revealing what non qclasses/qraces can do rather then saying "Go play one and find out yourself". Ideally you want the MUD to have loads of elite players, rather then a select few who are only elite by virtue of having played here since day 1.

I spent years learning this game... I wouldn't consider myself elite, but I may be up into veteran, by virtue of time and amount of combos played.

edit: Also, I agree with q-class/race/etc., being kept secret. Blademasters specifically, because I haven't played a blademaster, and anyone who has will say, figure it out on your own. There have been plenty of examples about it, but here's one more.

Say you've been with a company for 10 years. You are dedicated, hard-working, loyal employee. Someone retires, and their job is open to you for promotion. You've got everything they want for that position, then all of a sudden, some young kid who's been around for six months gets your job. How happy would you be?

After putting in all the work and effort to become great at your job, some newbie comes in and gets everything you've worked for without breaking a sweat.

[Goomf]

Kill the newbie. Duh

[Pali]

Skill in this game boils down to three things, in this order:

1. Speed

Speed can be learned in about two minutes, but most people never really grasp it. It ranges from having a feeling for the movement pulse of the MUD (so you can move at full speed without spamming) to complex triggers/color filters/aliases/macros/sounds that all help you to understand the output faster and/or allow you to put in the input faster. Superior speed is what seperates elite players from good players. This is not hidden on the forum.

2. Area knowledge

This includes things such as mob locations, eq/consumable stats/locations, room layouts/locations, shortcuts, all that stuff. This is the hardest part of the game to learn, and simply takes time. Some people advocate making some **** character and ID everything, while others recommend a more 'natural' approach of just playing. This is the data that is specific to this MUD and allows for general 'strategy' (aka equipping). Superior area knowledge seperates good players from average ones. The important things within this category are hidden on the forum.

3. Class-specific balacing

This is what most people call tactics in the game. This is what players understand as knowing to fly to avoid trip, keep detect invis up, etc. Use this shield against this class, and use this weapon combo against this class. Examining this tells us that invokers, bmgs, and blms tend to be 'strong' classes, while things like healers, bards, and berserkers tend to be 'weak' classes. This knowledge seperates average players from poor ones. The "advanced" things within this category are hidden on the forum.

Now personally, I hate the censorship of important information. This sponsors an elitest information-controlled competitive environment. If I have access to the information, I am likely to be better than you. I believe this approach is encouraging things that are disdained by the staff (such as ooc relations).

The knowledge should be free for all, and then the environment would be -equally- competitive. Rather than fighting for who knows what, you are fighting for the best way to use that information.

To show how it stands now, I can use this analogy:

There are two people writing a paper on classical idealism. Neither person has ANY experience on the topic. For one person, you allow research and the ability to communicate with other people. For the second person, you lock them in a room and give them an abstract from some single source. Which is likely to write the better paper?

Of course this depends on the individuals involved, but I think you can agree that the first person has a huge advantage.

I am one of the people with access to almost all the information in the game. I have experience that dates back to the oldest players/imms, OOC connections..the entire works. Being good in this game shows nothing of my skill, it only shows that I have all the right conditions working for me.

I would much rather that the MUD opened up, and it would be those who actually draw the connections of what is happening that would have the skill.

I really dislike the "cover the game in mist so it looks complex" crap so it takes people years to become good.

Yes Pali, you've had some characters. Are you still in the top 3/4?...do you think everyone can achieve that after six months (if so, why hasn't everyone)?...why exactly SHOULD it take years/months to become skilled at this game? Just because you had to go through it?

...you're damned persuasive, you know that? *goes off to think a bit*

[Chayesh]

I absolutely disagree with logs having anything to do with improving the skill of a player. That's crazy.

Celerity actually makes that point referring to Wikipedia...the answer is having access to information will NOT make you an expert on the topic (especially if you are using Wikipedia...I mean come on...).

There are players who've been here for YEARS who are not PK powerhouses. There is a skill involved with PK and there is a skill involved in striking RP. Neither are derived from reading logs.

Logs are a limited way to view good battles for entertainment purposes and maybe pick up some tactics. They aren't, and never have been, intended to be some sort of PK primer. Do you read the RP logs to get better at RP? Or just to have a good read and be amazed at what your fellow players come up with? I'll wager the latter more often than not.

This current administration is continuing the policy of both earlier administrations with the editing of PK logs. Knowledge is something to be gained in game through RP, experimentation, and active PK. You will not build your skills reading the forum.

[Chayesh]

Just as an additional thought...

Does it not behoove the newer player to read the class essays? I would think essays written by IMMs, former IMMs, and veteran players specifically for the classes in question would be FAR more valuable than player logs for learning the basics, and that information is just a click away.

[The Forsaken]

Do you read the RP logs to get better at RP? Or just to have a good read and be amazed at what your fellow players come up with?

There's your first problem Chayesh...who reads the RP logs? Hah!

[corpsestomp]

Just as an additional thought...

Does it not behoove the newer player to read the class essays? I would think essays written by IMMs, former IMMs, and veteran players specifically for the classes in question would be FAR more valuable than player logs for learning the basics, and that information is just a click away.

Which brings up a point I was wondering about...why hasn't anyone written a bard essay after the revamp?

[Fiere]

My FL career goes in stages. Much of the things I know and use now I wasn't prepared for before. And I've seen that in a lot of newbies I've took under my wing from time to time. I'll tell them a bunch of crap, but then they still have to go off and "discover" it themselves. Seems to me you have to have a certain degree of skill with what you have before you can even use some of the "deeper" secrets.

[Deykari]

Logs are a limited way to view good battles for entertainment purposes and maybe pick up some tactics. They aren't' date=' and never have been, intended to be some sort of PK primer. Do you read the RP logs to get better at RP? Or just to have a good read and be amazed at what your fellow players come up with? I'll wager the latter more often than not.[/quote']

This is what I was trying to get across. I agree completely with this statement.

[Deykari]

I think to log your own battles is much better than reading the PK logs around if you're looking to improve. Something about realising the reason you died and got full-looted was because you did spell X at the wrong time as opposed to just reading a log and seeing somebody die because they casted a certain spell.

It's like most things, there is a 'practical' side (getting out there and PKing) and there is the 'theoretical' side (all the tactics, essays, etc.). You can read all of the theoretical stuff you want before playing the game, but that doesn't mean the moment you get in there you'll be a PK powerhouse. It is a combination of practical experience with the theoretical side that helps you improve. And what better theoretical side of things is there, than your own PK logs taken from your own practical experiences to see where you yourself, messed up? Again, your own logs have no edited skillsets - part of finding out what one of those 'special, hidden' skills is, is not neccessarily rolling up and applying for said qrace/qclass whatever and USING the skill, but having it used AGAINST you. That comes under learning how something works for yourself - you die because Nasty Vamp does a Nasty Spell against you and it results in your death. You read the log. You scratch your chin, and think, "Wow, I bet I know how I can stop that spell!". Then you get the relevant preparation, use it, avoid that spell, but oh noes! Not another new skill! "Well, I know to look out for that in future, maybe I could try running and healing a bit more". etc. etc.

I think it is a lot more satisfying to work these things out for yourself than to have everything handed out to you. Having no hidden information may even the playing field in some ways as you say Celerity, but in my opinion you learn a lot more by just getting out there and PKing and getting involved, even if you come across a few things you might not know too much about.

I think what the biggest problem for newer players to get over, is not what skill X vs skill Y does, and so on, but getting over the fear of losing any "good" equipment they get, and perhaps not as widespread, avoiding PK with the beasts. Never understood why people get decked, then run from PK all the time because they don't want to use it - EQ is there to aid in PK.

This is of course, just my opinion.

Dey

[WagesofSin]

Just as an additional thought...

Does it not behoove the newer player to read the class essays? I would think essays written by IMMs, former IMMs, and veteran players specifically for the classes in question would be FAR more valuable than player logs for learning the basics, and that information is just a click away.

I have found many of those essays misleading and sometimes just plain wrong. Some of them seem like the writer doesn't grasp the reality of the game or has only played to level 30.

Some of them are very helpful however.

[Shadowmaster]

Misinformation.

There are players who've been here for YEARS who are not PK powerhouses. There is a skill involved with PK and there is a skill involved in striking RP. Neither are derived from reading logs.

Right, so what harm is there in posting them?

They aren't' date=' and never have been, intended to be some sort of PK primer. Do you read the RP logs to get better at RP? Or just to have a good read and be amazed at what your fellow players come up with? [/quote']

Right, so what harm is there in posting unedited ones. Right now that edited stuff is not a good read.

This current administration is continuing the policy of both earlier administrations with the editing of PK logs.

This is just patently false. There were logs on the official website for years that showed both qrace and cabal abilities with the exception of a few of Conclave's powers.

Rather then argue with you about how to run your MUD, I will just ask who do you ideally hope this information is concealed from? Veterans? Elites? Noobs? Why on earth do you believe editing pk logs is helping your MUD in any way shape or form? Your logic for why a non-quest class skill must be edited in a log is just astoudingly difficult to fathom.

[Kyzarius]

to answer your last question..

because spoilers suck...and as long as there is more to discover there is more to do and more to play.

And most people get a feeling of accomplishment when they discover something on their own, rather than have it handed to them with no effort.

[Deykari]

What makes me laugh, in reflection of looking at the entire thread, is how this is a ridiculously minor issue, that is perfectly understandable (qraces/qclass/cabals being secret 'sects' if you like, that as such have their own skills that are meant to be hidden away from any not within that sect) yet everyone is getting uppity over it.

Why are you so adamant in having any hidden information revealed? It does not make that much difference at all to the way the MUD is played, because you will pick up what these hidden skills/spells are as you use them/are used on you. And I really don't see how having edited logs is going to drive down new players coming in.

Dey