Questioner Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 Believe we should pull our troops out still? Think those insurgents will compromise with the U.S. or U.N.? I suggest you tune in tommorrow on fox at 9:00 eastern time for an enlightening special called "Exposed" bu Bill O'reilley. And if you detest the man...make believe he isn't there cause this is something I suggest everyone watches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 Contrasted to this article. Interview with the author of a book called Dying to Win: The Logic of Suicide Terrorism, who has studied every suicide terrorist attack since 1980, as well as their motivations and recruitment tactics, and DOESN'T have a political bias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfdude Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 haha fox news is a ****ing biased joke don't insult this forums intelligence. do you even know any troops? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Questioner Posted November 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 I am sure cnn is unbiased and tells the WHOLE story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfdude Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 no, they are all biased. there is no unbiased television network. with a slight exception being to bbc, and even they have a bias. terroism is like it is BECAUSE we are over there. actually it isn't terrorism, they are defending their country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Questioner Posted November 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 Look..I don't want to argue with you. Just watch the dam show and complain to me then. Just watch it. Learn something for christ sake! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 Terrorism is a tactic, not a motivation. It can be used in an attempt to further any cause, be it defending your territory from foreign occupation or religiously-motivated attacks on heathen powers. Reading the article I posted (which is far less biased than any news network politically), as well as various other reasons, lead me to believe that the former is the main reason terrorism is being used in the Middle East, though the latter helps as an ethical backup (feels better killing someone if you believe wants you to, and no this is not me saying that all religion is evil). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Questioner Posted November 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 Did you know they recently chant: Bomb Bomb USA Bomb Bomb USA Kill Kill UK Kill Kill UK and: Death to America! Allah is great! and: The armageddon is near and islam will be the one religion of all! We shall control europe, america, and egypt! Allah is great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfdude Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 The reason our soldiers are getting killed right now is because we are an invading army over there. I am all about stopping terrorism but stirring up trouble in a foreign land isn't the way to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 It's similar to the Crusades. The main motivations were political and economical, not religious. The First Crusade was spurred by Pope Urban II's desire for political power in Europe, so he rallied various European nobles under the flag of Christianity to save their fellow Christians from Muslim aggression. Note the word "aggression". The Muslims in Jerusalem had recently begun sealing the city off to Christians and Jews, and this angered the Christian Europeans who saw it as their Holy Land. Now the Muslims were taking territory from their Orthodox Christian allies. It was time to strike back in the mind of the nobles, Urban II knew this, and used it. EDIT: Forgot to put this in: Urban's opportunity for the Crusade occurred when the Seljuk Turks began taking Byzantine territory in Asia Minor. The Byzantine's could not defeat them in battle, so Emperor Alexius asked Urban to send an elite force to help the fellow Christian country defeat Muslim aggression. When the 60,000 strong army arrived, Alexius was horrified, and this led to some strife between the Crusaders and the Byzantine forces. Somewhat similar to the divides between Sunnis and Shi'ites in Iraq now, as they recognize a common foe yet still fight each other as well. Parallel's to today: Previously Muslim territory (present-day Israel) given to Jewish foreigners by Christian foreigners spurred the fighting that's lasted for decades. Right now, two more Muslim powers (Afghanistan and Iraq) have been invaded by Christian powers. The first had struck at these Christian powers, but it was viewed by many as retaliation for those Christian powers giving the Jews Muslim territory. The second hadn't struck at all, and was invaded by the same Christian power with the assistance of another Christian power. Obviously, there is motivation for revenge, spurred by them being Christians, sure, but primarily because they have taken aggressive actions. Bin Laden is no idiot. He recognized this, and using Islam as a rallying cry he uses this desire for revenge against the foreign aggressors. Also think of it this way: The Middle East has been Islamic for centuries. Suicide terrorism did not occur until after Christian and Jewish forces took permanent residence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Forsaken Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 Reminds me of a line from a song... "When you own the information, you can bend it all you want" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 Reminds me of a line from a song... "When you own the information, you can bend it all you want" The thing is, the government (nor any other single group) doesn't own the information at all. It simply is the main way that people get the information. Most people do not take the time to research things beyond what they hear in the news and read in the paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfdude Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 Its getting so bad over there too, it sucks. Its almost to the point of full-blown civil war, I hope we don't get stuck in there too much longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Questioner Posted November 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 If you have ever truly studied Islam, you will realize like I have that Islam is not spread through peaceful means. Not by the book, speech, or word of mouth. It is spread at the point of the sword. From the beginning: When the Muslims were conquering the world of Europe, they were momentarily stopped in Spain. Spain put up a great fight, except they were conquered. The Muslims practically ran the countryside over killing all unless they converted to Islam. The Christians finally stopped them in Cantabria in northern Spain where my family comes from at the battle of Covadonga. Muslims held Spain for another 25 years until gradually they were pushed out through resistance after 700 years. The Arabic word islam literally means “submission,” but as a religious term in the Koran, it means “submission to the will or law of God.” One who practices Islam is a Muslim. According to the Koran, Islam is the primordial and universal religion, and even nature itself is Muslim, because it automatically obeys the laws God has ingrained in it. For human beings, who possess free will, practicing Islam does not involve automatically obeying but rather freely accepting God’s commandments. Basically all other religions are sacrilege. Muslims regard the Koran as the speech of God to Muhammad, mediated by Gabriel, the angel of revelation; they believe that God himself, not Muhammad, is the author and therefore that the Koran is infallible. The term jihad, usually translated “holy war,” designates the struggle toward the Islamic goal of “reforming the earth,” which may include the use of armed force if necessary. The prescribed purpose of jihad, however, is not territorial expansion or the forcible conversion of people to Islam, but the assumption of political power in order to “implement the principles of Islam through public institutions”. Nowhere do I see this happening. So that means all those suicidal bombers are bad Muslims. Naughty, naughty. The concept of jihad was nevertheless used by some medieval Muslim rulers to justify wars motivated by purely political ambitions. In the Koran it is law that women cannot walk outside of their homes unless accompanied by a male relative, even if it is their newborn son. They must not be seen by any other man than their husband. They have no right whatsoever and are completely ruled by their husband. Women have no rights at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 Christianity was spread by the sword as well. Barbarian tribes were conquered and forced to convert. If you can find me a single society that has ever converted to Christianity PURELY though missionary work, please, let me know. EDIT: By the way, I'm not arguing at all that Islam is a peaceful religion. I wouldn't argue that Christianity is a peaceful religion either (though Behrens is free to if he'd like ^_~). What I'm saying is that the primary motivation for terrorist acts is NOT the religion, it is the (perceived or actual) act of aggression by foreign powers. What makes these powers even MORE foreign is that they are heathens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Questioner Posted November 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 I never said that. But we don't go blowing up people with bombs strapped to our bodies now do we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 I never said that. But we don't go blowing up people with bombs strapped to our bodies now do we? No, but that's religious differences. Christianity doesn't promote martyrdom, Islam does (although Christianity worships a martyr ^_~). Christians have ALWAYS, on the other hand, been up for large-scale wars. Also, again, it's a choice of tactics. Suicide bombing achieves results, and none of the Middle Eastern powers have anything near the ability to stand up to the West in real war enough to get similar results. Had they this ability, they'd use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Questioner Posted November 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 As if the persians didn't try to conquer all of europe and the middle east. Pshhh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfdude Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 I don't think any of that is relevant anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Questioner Posted November 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 On a side note...please do not make this thread on islam. The purpose of this thread was to let the folks know about the show. It is an oppurtunity for you all to understand a little more about what is going on in the world and they are thinking of us, how they view us, and what they want to do. It also shows what they teach the people about us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekky Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 Back in the days of WWII, French resistance fighters in Nazi occupied France carried out many acts such as car bombing German hang-outs and conducting drive by shootings of German officers in crowded resturaunts. There were often civilian casualties. I'm sure the Germans classed these acts as terrorism. But many of us would say that they were legitimate acts as they were fighting to restore their country from what was widely perceived as an illegal and violent occupation by an invading force. Fast forward to today. Iraqi militants bomb and fire on US targets in US occupied Iraq. There are civilian casualties. They are also attempting to liberate their country from what they (and the UN, incidentally) view as an illegal occupation. Are they terrorists because they're named Abdul and they wear turbans? And are the French people of WWII freedom fighters because they're white Christians? That just seems to me to be the spin most media puts on things nowdays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 Exactly my point, Nekky. Apologies if it seemed this way, but I really wasn't trying to make this a thread on Islam at all. I'm saying that Islam isn't the root cause of the violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfdude Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 hell, goerge washington was a "terrorist" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inscribed Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 I posted this in another thread, but it is applicable here as well. http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2006-10-29-1.html Orson Scott Card on all things Middle East. One of the best summaries of the current situation in the Middle East that I've read, and it comes from a registered Democrat and one of the best science fiction authors of our time. Honestly, if you believe America to be an 'occupying force', or that we are fighting militant Iraqis, then you have a pretty naive view of the situation over there. The people we are fighting are not Iraqis, as they hold no allegiance to any real nation, only the Muslim nation. The actual Iraqis are the ones worried we might pull out. Again, read the article I linked, and then offer any arguments if you still have points to argue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Questioner Posted November 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 Like I said...this thread is not to argue the pbase's opinions on the war or on islam. It was meant to inform everyone of a highly informated show playing tommorrow on a news channel (fox) at 9 o'clock eastern time. I do not care what you post on this thread for now. Create a new thread and I will discuss there. Not on this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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