Deleted due to lack of game balance.

[Kaijir]

It isn't hard to tell why drows/elves are mostly the top players at 50 when you get a combo with a vuln that is 100% impossible to exploit if you aren't a ranger/thief/ninja. Shouldn't all vulnerable races in theory have the same number of explotiable vulnerabilities?

Why even have vulns altogether? I suggest the staff spend a considerable amount of time reviewing class/race balance, because right now it seems to me to need a lot of tweaking.

Good luck and I'd love to return here if some of these issues with balance were addressed. Thanks to all I interacted with.

[Guest emp_newb]

Its a shame to see someone leave cause of this kind of stuff. I can understand frustration. But the game is very balanced. Just right now the pbase as a whole has alot more skill than the earlier years. Just keep truckin and find the class you shine with (that is NOT a healer ). Hopefully you come back after a bit.

[Kaijir]

Disagree.

But the game is very balanced.

Imagine how many people would play fire giants if invokers lost ice storm and icicles and frostbrands were removed. That is where the mud is now in relation to drow/elves. If as a straight melee class I cannot get even a single weapon to exploit an enemy's vulnerability, something is wrong from a design or theory standpoint. It is impossible for any critical thinker to believe otherwise.

[Deykari]

Yeah, and that 16 con those Elves and Drow get would give them a great buffer-zone of HP to handle an easily exploitable vuln.

I mean, take Ogre for example - just because Ogres have an easily exploited magic vuln and Drow have a tricky-to-exploit mithril Vuln, doesn't mean that Drow > Ogre, because what the Ogre loses in magic defense they gain in good stats and other racial perks.

I might be wrong, and I will gladly hold my hand up to it if I am, but it sounds to me like you've had a bit of a trouble with some Elves of Drow that might be particularly well-played.

Dey

[Acerbity]

I've seen drows with more then 900+ hp. Something a class with no vuln has, but easily destroyed. Comparing Ogres and Drow/Elf isn't a viable comparison.

Edit: And aside from ninja throw and bard throw, they have no vulns (and even then, I'm not too sure if throwing a silver/mithril item even does extra damage..). The only vuln they have is they can't touch silver items, or mithril items. Just because they can't wear Tainted Gear as a drow, or wear some of the better hitroll eq as an elf, does not mean they have it at all worse then any other class. And their EXP penalty? It's not as high as I'd like it to be. I think a Mino Zerk or Mino Warrior exp pen (700, 800?) would make it even better, but not fix it. And as far as I know, no damage noun refers to 'silver/mithril' damage in the code. Their dex is insane, their ac even more insane, invokers can get the high top on them, some of the time, but I wouldn't count on it. And even then, the invokers are drow/elves too.

Anyway, just a bit to think on.

[Guest emp_newb]

I have played several elves, and trust me, bash one. My old elf war got a few kills, but bottom line is a giant bashing me flat out ate my little elven world and my family line to my grandparents.

[Kaijir]

Ok.

I have played several elves' date=' and trust me, bash one. My old elf war got a few kills, but bottom line is a giant bashing me flat out ate my little elven world and my family line to my grandparents.[/quote']

That has nothing to do with their non-existant vuln. This race is geared to communer/mage. Tell me a drow/elf mage/communer isn't a strong combo?

[Deykari]

I've seen drows with more then 900+ hp. Something a class with no vuln has' date=' but easily destroyed. Comparing Ogres and Drow isn't a viable comparison.[/quote']

I was comparing them in the sense that one of them has a hard-to-exploit vuln whilst the other one has the easiest vuln to exploit in the game, yet the latter stands a good chance of beating the former, depending on of course, race/class combo, EQ, player skill, etc. etc.

Just because a race has a vuln doesn't mean it should be easy to exploit. Drow and Elves are weak in other ways than just their hard-to-exploit vuln, it does exist so that specific classes can exploit it. Can you imagine the Drow Mithril vuln being as easy to exploit as the Feral Fire vuln?

Don't forget also, that I'm sure that the reason that Drow and Elves have those iron and mithril vulns was to do with stopping them use certain EQ as opposed to making them truly viable PK vulns.

Dey

[Deykari]

That has nothing to do with their non-existant vuln. This race is geared to communer/mage. Tell me a drow/elf mage/communer isn't a strong combo?

Of course it is a strong combo.

But are you implying that Elven and Drow casters/communers are overpowered?

Dey

[Guest emp_newb]

ok, if a drow/elf communer is a strong combo, then is a fire giant zerk/war overpowered in the same right? Also that is why elves have the highest exp pen.

[Kaijir]

To really be blunt.

Communers/casters are overpowered because they are nigh-unlaggable. From a straight power standpoint, faeries/elves/drow communers/casters are the best combos on this game.

[The Greased Weasel]

He's made up his mind, just let it rest when he cools down he'll come back mayhaps

[Acerbity]

And I never stated it should be easily exploitable. The thing is, it's not exploitable. Their dex and their AC prove to superior parry/shield block (and with all these damn shields and weapons that aren't disarmable?) and even then, as I previously said, call lightning may do a bit. But, since elves and drow are zapped by most 'metal' items, they aren't much effected by call lightning anyway.

No one's implying drow or elves are overpowered. I believe what Kaijir is trying to say, is that while every other class that doesn't have a vuln has a HUGE exp penalty or crappy stats, elves and drow, even though it's 500 exp for the most part toward communer/mages, doesn't have a high enough exp penalty due to their supposedly vulnerability to silver and mithril.

[Deykari]

Communers/casters are overpowered because they are nigh-unlaggable. From a straight power standpoint' date=' faeries/elves/drow communers/casters are the best combos on this game.[/quote']

So, because communers and casters are nigh-unlaggable, Elven and Drow vulnerabilities should be made easier to strike?

Your problem sounds more like a problem with a balance between melee and communer and NOT between how Elves and Drow are 'overpowered'. If you think that Elf and Drow are the more superior communer and caster race, look at our two current Nexus and Savant Caba Leaders, Avian BMG and FG Cleric.

I might be going totally in the wrong direction here - are you saying that you'd like to see Elf/Drow vulns made easier to exploit, or if not that, that Elves and Drow are in someway, overpowered? Sorry if I'm wrong, that's just the vibe I got from your thread.

It isn't hard to tell why drows/elves are mostly the top players at 50 when you get a combo with a vuln that is 100% impossible to exploit if you aren't a ranger/thief/ninja. Shouldn't all vulnerable races in theory have the same number of explotiable vulnerabilities?

Why even have vulns altogether? I suggest the staff spend a considerable amount of time reviewing class/race balance, because right now it seems to me to need a lot of tweaking.

Dey

[Kaijir]

Your problem sounds more like a problem with a balance between melee and communer and NOT between how Elves and Drow are 'overpowered'.

They are two seperate issues. In my opinion at least. Keep in mind I come from two MUD's nearly like this one, but much older. Both of these situations are handled differently on them. I just don't believe melee's stack up to communers/casters (with prot shield) here. Everything has to go right to win as the melee, while the moment things start going right for the communer/caster, the melee's chances for victory decrease exponentially.

I might be going totally in the wrong direction here - are you saying that you'd like to see Elf/Drow vulns made easier to exploit?

Dey

Ideally, to me, if I use a mithril sword on a drow, it should hurt them more. If they cannot even pick it up, logic would lead one to believe sticking it in them with force would cause more damage then a typical weapon. I would just like to see them get hit with vuln damage if a melee class uses a vuln weapon. Right now exp penalty isn't even so much the issue. With this playerbase size, ranking seems pretty easy except if you can't get from about 43-50 quickly. I certainly don't think drow/elves would be underpowered if this was implemented. Rather, I believe some of the straight melee classes wouldn't be fighting uphill battles against most everyone else as I feel they do now. Thoughts?

[Zrothum]

I can't say I'd disagree with a high average mithril and iron sword, all ethos can use, being put into the game.

Being able to kill a cleric/shaman is dependant on ONE thing alone. Damage output. If you can't kill them quickly, you aren't killing them (this is talking same skill lvl, both people decently dressed. Or actually, that melee being the average melee....not decked.)

What race are most clerics/shamans @ 50? Drow. Only one or two melee chars in the game are going to have a fighting chance at killing one, because of the damage output not being there.

Hindsight is, maybe it's supposed to be like that, for the cycle of things. Melee>Rogue

Caster>Melee

Communer>Everything

Rogue>naked people

But yea, I'd almost agree with him that Drow (not elves) should be given a little more of an exploitable vuln. Drow shamans/clerics are notorious for being absolute powerhouses.

So yea, make Lightbringer avg 25 mithril

[Deykari]

Ideally' date=' to me, if I use a mithril sword on a drow, it should hurt them more. If they cannot even pick it up, logic would lead one to believe sticking it in them with force would cause [i']more damage then a typical weapon. I would just like to see them get hit with vuln damage if a melee class uses a vuln weapon. Right now exp penalty isn't even so much the issue. With this playerbase size, ranking seems pretty easy except if you can't get from about 43-50 quickly. I certainly don't think drow/elves would be underpowered if this was implemented. Rather, I believe some of the straight melee classes wouldn't be fighting uphill battles against most everyone else as I feel they do now. Thoughts?

If the vuln was easier to exploit but not an amazingly strong vuln (a little bit more damage, not like Fire on a Feral) then I think maybe so. But even then, that just makes the premise of an FG/Avian/Human/Faerie etc. etc. Caster/Communer sound more promising than Elf/Drow, when the problem you mention doesn't appear to be with the Elf/Drow race in particular, just that the majority of communers and casters at the minute are of those two races and so melees may be having troubles against them.

I personally don't think that melees have an uphill battle against communers and casters if you assume that both the melee and the caster/communer class are properly prepared and dressed as needed. Moreso that for them (melees) to stand a better chance of being successful, they need a good set of EQ behind them, whereas casters/communers can get by with significantly less EQ.

I don't think it's that big of an issue, EQ problems aside for melees struggling to get a good set, but I think Behrens said recently that caster/communer and melee balance is something he is/has been looking into anyway.

Dey

[Acerbity]

Another point..

Why is it that the weapon has to have a noun or damage noun via code to exploit any vuln? I mean, ferals can pick up the Fire Lance, because it isn't made of fire. But it still uses the noun 'flame', and in the code, DAM_FIRE. As for mithril weapons, they either have DAM_SLASH, DAM_BASH, whatever, but being made of mithril or silver, being zapped by it, yet not getting their vuln exploited by it?

Perhaps that's another issue that needs looking into.

[Deykari]

Easy way to kill an Elf or a Drow (or anyone else for that matter)?

Just type 'who group' and see where you go from there.

And yes, I'm kidding.

Dey

[goldbond]

oh crap, if c/c 's are about to be significantly nerfed then wish i hadnt dumped 50 hours into my current project

[Deykari]

Nobody said there was going to be any nerfing. Behrens didn't say that he was looking at toning communers/casters down or warriors up per se, just that maintaining the balance between the two types is something he is always looking at.

Sorry if I'm misquoting.

Dey

[myrek]

What I am hearing is a debate of warrior types (which traditionally have easily exploited vulns) and C/Cs (which traditionally do not have easily exploited vulns).

But there are many aspects of a character's ability to consider.

One that has already been hit upon is the "paper, scissors, rocks" reality. but something that has been overlooked is re-equipping. C/Cs don't re-equip easily. Warrior-types can bash their way to a decent set of equipment in a tenth of the time it takes other types of characters.

I do think that C/Cs have the edge at 50. Personally, I think they should. Warriors are strong low. They are easier to train. Worker harder, get more at the end.

[Kaijir]

I do think that C/Cs have the edge at 50. Personally' date=' I think they should. Warriors are strong low. They are easier to train. Worker harder, get more at the end.[/quote']

Eh? If you could pkill at low ranks I'd agree with you. Plus I thought all was supposed to be balanced at 50.

[elfdude]

Haha, who is this dude? Seriously man you don't know what your talking about and I haven't seen you bring up a single valid point. Sorry to bust your balls homeslice

[Deykari]

Haha' date=' who is this dude? Seriously man you don't know what your talking about and I haven't seen you bring up a single valid point. Sorry to bust your balls homeslice[/quote']

Well..there's always that angle...

Seriously, that just made me laugh out loud and look like an idiot in front of the parents.

Dey