An Alternative Essay on Stats, Dialects, and FL

[Celerity]

I found that I didn’t fully agree with Behrens’ essay on stats. I’d like to present an alternative argument based on stats drawn from the game itself.

8 str: Weight: 142

9 str: Weight: 142

10 str: Weight: 142

11 str: Weight: 142

12 str: Weight: 142

13 str: Weight: 142

14 str: Weight: 142

15 str: Weight: 152

16 str: Weight: 167

17 str: Weight: 182

18 str: Weight: 202

19 str: Weight: 227

20 str: Weight: 252

21 str: Weight: 302

22 str: Weight: 352

23 str: Weight: 402

24 str: Weight: 452

25 str: Weight: 502

There are a few ways to derive the average strength (in regards to all races, not just any individual race). One, assuming an even dispersal, would be to get the simple mean. If this was the case, the average would 232.5. This falls somewhere between 19 and 20 str. Unfortunately, there is not an even dispersal of str throughout all the races of the game, much less an even dispersal of populations of those races within the game world. Moreover, since these stats reflect the heroes and “elite PCs” of the game, they are likely inflated far above the average.

By looking at the point in which the rate of increase goes beyond zero, we can see where str becomes relevant to the PC, with each interval having an increase after 14. 8 str to 14 str is the average “range” of str. This also means that FL does hold fairly close to the DnD average of 9. There are differences in those stats concerning hit/dam up to 14, but the pattern and lack of the representation of change would suggest that the differences between each interval are insignificant, especially to the PCs (who are not average in any way). Lower than 8 str is not represented because it would not apply to the game world PC chars, who are elite in every way. There does not exist a PC in FL with lower than average str. There DO exist PCs with lower than average str when compared against the other PCs (as represented by the simple mean).

With establishing the base logic of 8-14 being the average range of the str stat, we can apply that that to the int stat as well. This means that even the PC fire giant is smarter than the average range of int throughout the entire FL world. This is why Behrens really is dumber than a fire giant! (just kidding!)

What does this mean for the average player? It justifies ‘smart’ giants (compared to the –average- not to the –elites-), yet also shows the large gap between those giants and their faerie counterparts. An elite human is roughly twice as strong as an average person in the world. An elite giant is roughly three times as strong.

Now, let’s assume all of this is wrong. Let’s say that 25 is the top int and 8 is the lowest in the world. The average is put at 20. With 15 int, a giant is far above the standard needed for fluent speech. Only the MOST challenged people cannot learn their first language completely fluently. In this case, that would be people with an 8 or 9 int. This also justifies giants being able to speak just well as any human.

Alternatively, if we put the elite human at 20 int (as in the first essay), this further justifies that giants should be able to speak well. The average human would be at least a few points below that (16-18?), and with the giants also at the decreased range of (11-13 int) they would be still far above the decreased minimal int needed for speech.

This is further shown by how ogres have slurred speech, while the more stupid giants do not. This shows how it seems to be a physical (relating to the formation of the vocal producing parts of the body—the tongue in particular) or dialectical issue. In the case of ogres, it seems to be a physical issue, as it is the pronunciation that is different, not the grammar used.

Many people in FL play giants with a dialect. They do this because they think that giants are too stupid to speak well, and so they make their PC speak with a stigmatized dialect. This is not correct. For example, somebody might play a giant and say something like this:

“Mer wannas goes ta the eatin placies.”

This is just as good as any language cognitively. They understand the word order, formation of the sentence, and correct choice of words. This is a matter of dialect and ‘common’ pronounciation, not intelligence. Moreover, it is a matter of stereotyping and stigmaticism because of the particular words and sounds that are chosen. We tend to think of people who say “Mer wanna” as being more stupid than a person who says “I would like to…” Language is totally arbitrary. There is nothing that says that concept is best said by that particular set of sounds. What it DOES show is that person has not conformed to standards of acceptable education or a prescriptive way of speaking. This has –nothing- to do with intelligence. If it had been a matter of intelligence, the same phrase might have looked like these:

“Et.” or “Waaaaaaaaah!” or “…”

So, we’ve shown that giants speak different as a matter of dialect and not intelligence. A lot of people play ogres with both the physical and dialectical issues. Giants tend to have the dialect problem. This is fine, as a giant may very well come from an area with that sort of dialect. Then again, an elf is just as likely. The problem lies in that ONLY the -stupid- races are being played with a dialect. This shows that people seem to associate it with a lack of intelligence, rather than a matter of a lack of social association with the standard dialect of “common”, also known as English in this case.

The people with the heaviest accents would be those furthest from the main cities (of which all three would have widely different accents, if not languages, in a RL setting)---demons, druids, werebeasts, feral, illithid, and the like. Not too many people play them with accents.

By associating a dialect with a lack of intelligence (giants), it is reinforcing a real-life stereotype that people (from different regions or even countries) who do not speak like you (or speak with a certain dialect you arbitrarily deem as “stupid”) are more stupid than you.

Summary:

Giants can speak as well as any other race. Giants far surpass the minimal intelligence (as shown by at least one example of the code in the game) needed to speak fluently. Giants are being played as speaking a dialect, with the thought that it is due to their low intelligence. Dialects are not based on intelligence. Almost exclusively, only low int races are played with a dialect. This is a social stereotype, which stigmatizes RL groups of people based on the words chosen.

[Kyzarius]

so basically, on the speech part, your saying that even though their int makes them the dumbest races in aabahran...they shouldnt have the slurred speech?

Behrens argument seems mroe to the fact that you have rp like they are the rogue scholar of their time.

[Celerity]

Not at all.

Slurred speech is a physical problem. Ogres and drunks have that problem in the game. That is fine!

The problem is the use of dialects in normal speech only by (mostly) dwarves, giants, and ogres---low int races.

As for the ability for argument, that can also be -argued- to be based more on non-verbal/instinctual/social skills rather than logic. These also have little to do with intelligence. Not too many 'arguments' are entirely founded in logical science, especially in the context of FL.

Remember, we have established that we are all elite PCs with otherworldly knowledge (and greater than average intelligence). This knowledge base is universal, from giant to elf in this game. When an elf makes a point to a giant about this knowledge base, just as in real life, it takes almost no intelligence to "check" the new data to your existing schemata. Especially in the context of philosophy or such fields. Morons can do this.

I totally agree with Behrens' point about Sanse talking with Charim as being Behrens talking to Celerity...this is an RP failure mostly. I'm mostly concerned with the parts I've mentioned in my first post.

Edit: I should make it clear that this isn't a -counter- post to Behrens. This is a post that highlights things that I think are different and some entirely different issues that never arose in his post. I don't entirely disagree with his essay either .

[Behrens]

To be clear, I was not saying that using a dialect is a requirement for good RP. Many people of sub-normal intelligence can hold a conversation in plain english just fine. Obviously fire giants at the top end can meet the minimum requirements for reading, since FG clerics can use scrolls. What I was criticizing was not use of dialect (a giant speaking in plain language is just fine with me), but use of high-level intellectual discussion, which would be well beyond their abilities. (And I am going to have to disagree that argument is an instinctive ability, in that I have found it to correlate heavily with intelligence, but that is beside the point).

I actually agree strongly with Celerity's point about dialect being a stereotype for low intellect. I would very much enjoy seeing an elf played with an accent, or a werebeast not understanding the use of "a, an, the" because his native tongue doesn't use them and he's unfamiliar with their usage.

Ogre's lack of ability to vocalize is their primitively formed jaws, not their ability to communicate.

[Celerity]

This is the statement in particular I was getting at:

The smartest Fire Giant ever born, their Einstein, can't even measure up to a human child. Complete sentances in a major language is probably a challenge,

With side bits on the totally instinctive combat..

[Chayesh]

It figures you'd be the FG advocate, eh?

I picture the Geico commercials with the pissed-off cavemen objecting to their advertising slogan "So easy a caveman could do it".

[Pali]

Communing incredible powers from your god: so easy a fire giant could do it.

[Behrens]

This is the statement in particular I was getting at:

With side bits on the totally instinctive combat..

Instinctive combat I meant the complex tactics that we all use.

And that is a typo, the word should have been "complex" not "complete"

[Kyzarius]

Communing incredible powers from your god: so easy a fire giant could do it.

funny, and useful.

This is what i gleaned from behrens essay...mainly that the above is true. As such would be natural to someone who can pray for things and they occur. This is acceptable, as fire giants make brutish and very effective clerics.

The argument to point is that the fire giant cleric should not be rp'ed in a way that proclaims that they have an indepth understanding as to why such things occur. Or how. Nor be able to discuss the frivelous nature of time and space with a savant. This is something that everyone runs into, and most are guilty of. Playing your storm giant cleric as if he is a well read scholar of knightly things. From a reverse standpoint, playing the wise mystic...that randomly slays anyone it can for no reason.

Of course, i do disagree...underdeveloped language is an easy way to indicate a poor grasp of speech, and thus, low intelligence. Maybe its not the hardest way, or the most complex. And perhaps more subtle changes in behavior and comprehension..at least shown...is better and more accurate.

[goldbond]

stone giant paladin .....R0XOR!!!

[Chromatic]

I'm guessing he meant storm, but I don't even think they can be paladins either, so oh well.

[Kyzarius]

I'm guessing he meant storm' date=' but I don't even think they can be paladins either, so oh well.[/quote']

haha yeah just looked that up, will edit to storm giant cleric

[Chromatic]

haha yeah just looked that up' date=' will edit to storm giant cleric [/quote']

It's alright. I still don't know what half the races can do. I'd still like to see a neutral monk, though.

[goldbond]

that would be some nice damage with no protection vs. align

[Pali]

that would be some nice damage with no protection vs. align

Unlike those gnome invokers and stone zerks...

[Deykari]

Without wanting to throw a spanner in the works, there is actually a way to get 'protection from neutral'.

I am so definately not going into how you get it though. I stumbled upon it by accident and I'm fairly sure that not many people know about it.

Dey

[goldbond]

oh, thnx 4 the h3lp d3y...

[Deykari]

The reason I'm not telling you is because it's one of the closely guarded secrets that I'm not allowed to tell you about. If I could, of course I'd tell you. But you heard it here first, folks, protection from neutral is around.

Yeah, and I'm not lying at all. Hahahaha.

Going back to the thread, I think I would be inclined to agree with Celerity's view. It's similar to how I thought about it (though obviously, my view was waaay more vague).

Dey

[Celerity]

I would very much enjoy seeing an elf played with an accent' date=' or a werebeast not understanding the use of "a, an, the" because his native tongue doesn't use them and he's unfamiliar with their usage.[/quote']

I'd just like to give props to that person who played the feral "dog" and did something very similar. It shows an indepth thinking behind the workings of the character, even linguistically...and more importantly the effort taken to actually go through and produce something with it (rather than just thinking about it).

[goldbond]

it was a feral. and i miss that character... like a lot.

[Tom]

The fellow behind Nyoboe, yes? I can't remember if it was Nyoboe who was the tame feral, but it was the same guy.

[goldbond]

oh i thought she meant Ravaati, a feral Swolf restring. didnt know nyo really at all.

[J.Twendrist]

Did Ravaati delete?

[Archbishop Monk]

Did Ravaati delete?

I think I saw her a few days ago. Unless it was just to delete.......

[BobcatFan]

When I play a gnome/elf, I try to speak as if they were a scholar on something, and up the vocab.... does that seem right?