Forsaken Lands

After discussing the topic, and looking across wm toolkit verus mals, I kinda think that their armor should lose it's ability to autocure mals. Just make the eye usable to cure a random mal instead of letting them easily take care of everything a shaman can do on top of having access to a vendor that sells mal curatives that can fairly easilly be stocked up. I understand you have to put in effort to do it, but the effort required to complete an easy quest is much easier than the effort required to land 1-2 mals. Right now WMs can pretty much turn off a shaman unless they are very poorly equipped, and even then they have very good odds to undo the work of the shaman through curatives fairly easily.

Nobody will change Warmaster. Its set in stone. Just end the post here. Curing every mal in the game while your a warmaster acting like an alchemist (savant skills) Is what they do. Let it go. Mages are meant to struggle. Might I add they dish out some of the highest damage in the game.

Edited Aug 27, 2020

Im not really trying to start a salt war or anything. Just looking across all cabals, warmasters have a much wider and easier to access tool kit for fighting shamans at any cabal rank. If I am wrong, I am wrong, but when running the numbers it just looks like WM where over compensated for their loss of some magic items, or all in the case of gladiators. If people don't agree that's fine. If imms dont agree that is also fine. It has been brought up several times by several people, and recently on discord the conversation had some compelling arguments. I wanted to get it in a place where the arguments for, and againt, can easily be accessed.

I've fought for this for years. Alchemist warmasters is the norm. It won't change. Save your fingers.

A few things:

Regarding the current level of effort required to obtain the Warmaster armor, one idea that has come up in conversation is re-evaluating and normalizing the existing in-game economies (namely CP and gold). Various mechanisms have thrown those economies out of balance over the years and, just like powercreep with equipment, we may well look at ways to level out the inflation of those currencies. If we were to make such a change, the level of effort required to obtain those items, along with the edible curatives, would theoretically increase.
We have an extremely open-minded staff, and Warmaster (which, if we are being completely honest, translated to Gladiator) is no exception. Take, for example, the recent forms fix -- here is what that process looked like:

Form-cast maledictions were identified as a problem -> the problem was documented (via logs) and presented in a way that made sense -> the errant code causing the problem was found -> the problem was fixed

Please keep in mind that, as much reluctance as there is to believe it, Gladiator does have some substantial disadvantages including:

An added layer of difficulty when traveling in a group.
The inability to use nearly any spell, stave, wand, or scroll
A substantial limitation on the number of usable items
A 12 hour induction period that prohibits the use of sanctuary and detect invisibility, creating an extreme sense of vulnerability
By far the weakest cabal guardian, meaning you can easily take their standard

As such, they do have some substantive strengths. The inability to have their stance dispelled. Ready access to consumables for four key maledictions. A nice set bonus on their armor. Forms. Et cetera. But as demonstrated routinely by the in-game landscape (i.e. the characters that come into existence), Gladiators are neither definitively overpowered nor would I even rate it as the "strongest" subcabal in the game. They have some perks, and we are always open to evaluating those perks.

I am not certain what the implication is otherwise about Warmasters and a resistance to changing them. But I can tell you, at least from my brief experience on staff so far, that there is no issue that our staff will categorically object to reviewing, especially if a cohesive, well-founded case is made on the topic.

If you feel that you have made such a case before, make it again. Seriously. Preferably with facts, data, numbers, logs, and a sound suggestion for a solution.

3 minutes ago, Gifnab said:

and Warmaster (which, if we are being completely honest, translated to Gladiator) is no exception

This line here comes across as something problematic to me. Would you mind explaining what you meant with it? It kinda comes across as Gladiator being the only viable WM subcabal and I am not sure if that is what you intended or if I am just misinterpreting you.

Edited Aug 27, 2020

19 minutes ago, Lexi said:

This line here comes across as something problematic to me. Would you mind explaining what you meant with it? It kinda comes across as Gladiator being the only viable WM subcabal and I am not sure if that is what you intended or if I am just misinterpreting you.

Certainly. What I meant by that is that people very rarely complain about Barbarian. It is almost exclusively Gladiators that are mentioned, hence why I refocused on that topic specifically.

Well apply cabal warfare vs a shaman with any cabal, then apply it with WM. The addition of WM items dramatically influences the fight. Couple that with the success rate of some mals versus the ssuccess rate of some curatives you see a pattern. Eating seven bloodwolf eyes is much easier than casting blind over seven rounds for example. With that you also get auto cures, and a cabal healer. When you compare that to other cabals in direct PVP, you really have a lot of advantages with no disadvantages as a WM when facing a shaman specifically. Dks, and Necros have a larger tool kit than mals, where a shaman does not. You are a centrally mal focused class, with some potential for high output versus poorly prepared people.

I think what I am trying to say, and doing it poorly, is that WM can mostly skip over mal saves while still being viable in combat versus a shamans main strategies while using a stockpile of consumables. Then even if it does go south, you can still default to the gameplan of run. I would just like to see the auto curatives not auto fire. Make them usable with a cooldown.

The only real handicap is traveling in a group, and even then you can get around that easy by being group leader, and setting variable targeting triggers "%1 gets in your way.(or whatever the message is" then have it group %1 etc etc stance then regroup. You can solo pretty much any area you want to with any class these days.

A different angle to this fix is to fix Shaman instead of trying to balance mals that a lot of other classes use. Currently, shaman are pigeonholed into the mal game. Their only damaging mals (mals that actually take off health) are the ones that are the most dangerous because they will directly lead to your death. If they were to get a larger toolkit of mals or have the mals operate slightly differently, then it could balance out the WM curables.

Examples:

1. Shaman plague has a debilitating factor. You can cure it, but then you are drain for 3 hours.

2. Shaman poison has an intoxication affect, you can cure it but the 'drunkeness' will last for 3 hour extra.

3. Shaman visitation becomes a buff that is automatic and random. Chance to cause visitation like the Pentagram Sorcerer. You can enhance its chance with Spirit Bind.

4. Hex has a chance to make you fumble when running, falling to the ground every now and then.

etc.

If you fix Shaman's toolkit, then they can still focus on mals and have something to face the warmaster with.

I had not thought of an adjustment to shamans, but that is probably a much more valid point than nerfing consumables that are going to empower necros and dks more than shamans anyway.

Buffing shaman then is a change that affects shamans vs everyone, not just shamans vs WM. Just something to keep in mind, especially now that people will be a lot more limited with saves (shamans should be one of the classes that are the most empowered by the class overhaul).

Just now, Lexi said:

Buffing shaman then is a change that affects shamans vs everyone, not just shamans vs WM. Just something to keep in mind, especially now that people will be a lot more limited with saves (shamans should be one of the classes that are the most empowered by the class overhaul).

That's why I gave it a specific cure to WM. Maybe I didn't mention it, but let WM cures only give those after affects

Just don't go Savant as a shaman. Why the hell would you limit yourself with those shitty cabal powers?

It's one of those classes that don't super synergize with any of the cabal choices. I guess spy is nice, and so is the blood guard? I was never impressed with Pandemonium, although I only had one and that was ages ago, so I might be missing some of the power shamans would get from them.

6 minutes ago, Lexi said:

It's one of those classes that don't super synergize with any of the cabal choices. I guess spy is nice, and so is the blood guard? I was never impressed with Pandemonium, although I only had one and that was ages ago, so I might be missing some of the power shamans would get from them.

Its great in Syndicate. Spy is VERY good for a shaman and secret arts is a great way to carve away at stockpiles of blind cures. Plus, auto-sneak is also top notch for a class that will end up heal dancing. Then, if you manage to get Leader... shudder...

Edited Aug 28, 2020

Yep, Syndi skill-set is VERY complimentary to shaman playstyle. So much so, it kinda gets boring quick. Pandy is my personal preference: reliable rescuing dragon, damage shield 50% of the time, and eye of moloch. Grab a no-disarm shield/weapon and cabal outfit and you're competitive.

I miss Sonnael, my last Pandy shaman who was turned into Volgathras' marionette. Fun toon. Maybe in a couple months.... whistles innocently

Edited Aug 28, 2020

A bloodwolf's eye is carried by a Warmaster

A dried deer liver is carried by a Warmaster

A dried perwinkle herb is carried by a Warmaster

A pair of lizard testicles is carried by a Warmaster

This is kinda what I mean. These are incredibly easy to stock because they don't rot and CP is easy to farm with quests. While the primary argument is that they have a low chance of success, they do not need to work every time, they need to work pretty much once to reset an engagement, and force a mal centric class to go off to heal up. In that time you just go buy more, rinse repeat. Landing these mals really isn't easy at all because mal saves are probably the most common save, I think the last shaman I have died to in the last several years is sialii who caught me completely pants down (good kill Sialii). Having such easy access to this many curatives was probably never intended. Noone but the longest standing WMs could stock up consumables like this because CP was not nearly as easy to farm as it is now. This does not even factor auto mal cures and class skills.

I know gladiators give up some parts of the game, but quality of life changes have slowly eroded that cost to where it isn't really a penalty anymore, but all the bonuses are still bonuses. I felt this way when I played Tiroq. I just wasn't scared of mals, they where never going to kill me. All I needed to do was be sure to have a stack of eyes on hand. Everything else could be pulled out after curing blindness. Even if it burns up 10 livers, who cares? I am alive aren't I? Then you just wait off bloody timer, go buy some more, and you are back to where you need to be. I understand this opinion may not be popular, as a lot of people enjoy the benefits of WM. I definitely did. I just think that in relation to balance, Warmaster has too many options that require no sacrifice when facing a shaman. You aren't giving anything up by picking up the WM eq, you where going to use it anyway as it is very good. After you have your eq, you get blades doing cabal duties, questing, farming vellum, taking bastions, and dueling. Again, I am not trying to argue, and scream people are wrong for disagreeing. I am just backing up my stance with facts, and evidence is all.

You’re right. You can stock a ton of them in a backpack, but if I can only hold 4-6 in inventory because I am a giant warrior and I have other weapons, armor swaps, and a boat then what good does 100 do in my pack if i fail to cure blind when it lands?

As the fight with a shaman or any class that mals, I will be in stance and therefore NOT gaining CPs. Apply enough pressure and I will run out of consumables and CPs.

Chesta never had an issue. You’ve done shamans and never had an issue. I’ve done shamans and never had an issue. Twinblades has done shamans and never had an issue.

I don’t see it as an issue.

I DID struggle to LAND stuff, but saves are being addressed so this isn’t as big of a deal anymore.

Edited Aug 28, 2020

How often do you die to a shaman because you ran out of on tap consumables?

Warmaster versus shaman