8 minutes ago, 'tarako said:
Again, I am not trying to argue, and scream people are wrong for disagreeing. I am just backing up my stance with facts, and evidence is all.
Also, you say this a lot. That you are backing up your stance with "facts and evidence" and that's not the case. You are backing up your opinion with anecdotes as if they are fact and its just not true.
Just now, 'tarako said:
How often do you die to a shaman because you ran out of on tap consumables?
When I can't get into my cabal to buy them.
Interesting how things have changed. Shamans used to be a Gladiators bane. A quick blindness + dysentery should equal gg against a Gladiator. I always thought WM cabal eq as a balancing factor for this. Now that eq rebalancing have adjusted mal and hit/dam gear this should be even easier...
Gladiators have inherent weaknesses that come with each of there strengths. Oddly its Barbarians whom don't have to give anything up to use these consumables IN ADDITION to healers across the lands but they're not usually discussed...
I dont understand how it is anecdotal.
Is CP easier to farm? Yes, much easier.
Do WMs have the easiest access to mal cures? Yes.
Do those mal cures cost cp? Yes
Are they difficult to stock/carry? No
Does Warmaster have more tools to fight shamans than any cabal besides Herald? Yes
If any of these are anecdotal, or opinion, show me where. Every one of those is true Trick. Toss in actual anecdotal evidence like player skill, discipline, and speed improving across the board and it is not difficult to see why shamans are probably the least played class in recent years.
On the topic of anecdotal, you said your shaman did well. Your shaman was undead, and using multiple sources of Slow. Any slowed undead is going to have a very hard time dying. THAT is anecdotal. Also I would absolutely love to hear what @Twinblades713 has to say. I am not sure if Chesta is here, but him too.
My shaman was during a time when saves were higher and easier to have than they'd ever been while maintaining high hit/dam. As saves are coming down, landing blindness consistently enough to eat away at that stockpile isn't going to be hard. My gripe at the time was I would spend 15minutes trying to land blind to have Keshan cure it in a single red potion. THAT was frustrating. Alternatively, I've landed blind on Keshan and seen him use his entire inventory up. Unfortunately, I couldn't make anything happen from it, but the fact is I was able to burn out his HELD stock pile.
A few months ago, you and I have even discussed this when theory-crafting and we both agreed shamans were going to be in a great place soon. That time is coming up if not already here.
Is it not anecdotal to locate the consumables of a single WM(to which we don't even know if it was inflated) and apply it across the board to all WMs?
Also:
Quote
- Object 'dark red potion' is type potion, material liquid.
Extra flags: glow magic.
Weight is 2, value is 544, level is 20.
Level 42 spells of: 'cure blindness'.Object 'potion gyvel' is type potion, material liquid.
Extra flags: magic.
Weight is 6, value is 300, level is 20.
Level 45 spells of: 'cure blindness'.
While the bloodwolf eyes and lizard testicles are both level 25, according to @Magick. You're going to eat a whole hell of a lot more than you would be quaffing potions. So, I gotta fall back to my original point that having 100 in a bag doesn't mean anything if you can't get to them.
4 minutes ago, tassinvegeta said:
Interesting how things have changed. Shamans used to be a Gladiators bane. A quick blindness + dysentery should equal gg against a Gladiator. I always thought WM cabal eq as a balancing factor for this. Now that eq rebalancing have adjusted mal and hit/dam gear this should be even easier...
Gladiators have inherent weaknesses that come with each of there strengths. Oddly its Barbarians whom don't have to give anything up to use these consumables IN ADDITION to healers across the lands but they're not usually discussed...
You are not chaining back to back mals with any kind of ease at all anymore. That is why 10 years ago shaman was the absolute bane of most players when played by a patient pker, and now they barely scrape up a few kills. Sure someone who is in the top 1% can do well at not dying, which I believe i exactly what twinblades said. He wasn't doing well, he just wasn't dying.
2 minutes ago, Trick said:
While the bloodwolf eyes and lizard testicles are both level 25, according to @Magick. You're going to eat a whole hell of a lot more than you would be quaffing potions. So, I gotta fall back to my original point that having 100 in a bag doesn't mean anything if you can't get to them.
It definitely means something. For one, blind isn't lethal. If you fail to cure blind, you just run away, or hide, or camo, or roc call when you hit a new zone, and wait it out. Most of us can navigate FL blind at this point, you arent dying to blindness + dysentary.
Also to suggest I artificially inflated numbers is pretty shitty. I am not lying about stuff that literally anyone in the game can log on and check for themselves via the locate spell. Thanks for the insinuation though. I love how the instant someone says something people disagree with it becomes an attack on their credibility. While you might not believe what I posted is accurate, I only edited out the name only. So again, I am not demanding changes, I am not saying I am right, kneel before me. All I am saying, across several threads, is discussion is healthy. Even if it results in no change at all, active discussion is great.
6 minutes ago, 'tarako said:
It definitely means something. For one, blind isn't lethal. If you fail to cure blind, you just run away, or hide, or camo, or roc call when you hit a new zone, and wait it out. Most of us can navigate FL blind at this point, you arent dying to blindness + dysentary.
Isn't that the point of a shaman's playstyle? No one thing is deadly, but if you have other mals stacked up and are blind and lost, your chances of surviving drop off considerably. Blind also lowers your offense and defense against a shaman, despite how low that may be, it does help. Its not any one mal, but the combination of many.
Landing blindness has led to me winning fights and has caused me to lose fights when it lands on me.
8 minutes ago, 'tarako said:
Also to suggest I artificially inflated numbers is pretty shitty. I am not lying about stuff that literally anyone in the game can log on and check for themselves via the locate spell. Thanks for the insinuation though. I love how the instant someone says something people disagree with it becomes an attack on their credibility. While you might not believe what I posted is accurate, I only edited out the name only. So again, I am not demanding changes, I am not saying I am right, kneel before me. All I am saying, across several threads, is discussion is healthy. Even if it results in no change at all, active discussion is great.
My point was that posting a single character's inventory as proof to back up your point isn't very reliable as not all Warmasters will have that. The possibility of someone doing that exists. If you take it is an attack, then I'm sorry. I was more so trying to point out the holes in using that as "evidence and fact", as you said, to back up your opinion.
The consumables from WM are easier to collect, but cast at a drastically lower level. I think this is a fair trade off.
I have to agree with @Trick on the basic consumables like cure poison and plague. But, the WM also have unique consumables like the periwinkle. i'm not saying WM are OP on consumables. The staff has already said they are looking into how easy it is to gain CP and gold. That may drastically improve how easy it is to stockpile anything. If you can only do hard quests for 25 CP a shot, then that will definitely decrease the amount that can be stockpiled and I'd be fine with it. Then, everyone would have to choose more specifically which they would pick. If they still give hardcore players a boost or a bigger boost, then being hardcore would be a method to generate quickly while at the same time risking a lot because of condeath.
I have been one to use the guild quests to generate CP's and have to admit, it is a bit crazy. I've had upwards of 7k CP before entering a cabal and within a few days had 10k after entering. That is WAY over the top as at that point you don't worry much about spending CP.
1 minute ago, Archbishop Monk said:
I have to agree with @Trick on the basic consumables like cure poison and plague. But, the WM also have unique consumables like the periwinkle. i'm not saying WM are OP on consumables. The staff has already said they are looking into how easy it is to gain CP and gold. That may drastically improve how easy it is to stockpile anything. If you can only do hard quests for 25 CP a shot, then that will definitely decrease the amount that can be stockpiled and I'd be fine with it. Then, everyone would have to choose more specifically which they would pick. If they still give hardcore players a boost or a bigger boost, then being hardcore would be a method to generate quickly while at the same time risking a lot because of condeath.
I have been one to use the guild quests to generate CP's and have to admit, it is a bit crazy. I've had upwards of 7k CP before entering a cabal and within a few days had 10k after entering. That is WAY over the top as at that point you don't worry much about spending CP.
How do you get CPs before being caballed? It was my understanding that quests only gave gold/exp pre-cabal...
Also, the same thing could be achieved by raising the cost of the WM consumables without impacting the rest of the game.
1 minute ago, Trick said:
How do you get CPs before being caballed? It was my understanding that quests only gave gold/exp pre-cabal...
There was a change a few years ago that made it so when you do quests, you keep the cp awards from them.
These quests should not be confused with the easy/medium/hard guild quests. These are the ones scattered about the world.
1 minute ago, Trick said:
How do you get CPs before being caballed? It was my understanding that quests only gave gold/exp pre-cabal...
Also, the same thing could be achieved by raising the cost of the WM consumables without impacting the rest of the game.
Repeatable quests around the lands. Some don't give that much while others give a ton. I don't even try to repeat the quests. I just go about normally completely them.
Ohhhh.. I was assuming guild quests!
I knew about other quests granting CPs pre-cabal to avoid missing out.
Just now, Trick said:
Ohhhh.. I was assuming guild quests!
I knew about other quests granting CPs pre-cabal to avoid missing out.
Yeah, I should have clarified. But, the truth is stockpiling CPs before you even enter a cabal isn't so hard these days. I don't think it is OP because most of them are not repeatable and the repeatable ones aren't easy and don't give much CPs anyways. But, when you throw guild quests on top of it, it does get crazy OP. No one a week into joining a cabal should be sitting at over 10k Cp while having already purchased all the cabal gear.
That is the bigger factor I was trying to outline. They are much easier to stock up on now than they ever where before. Much much easier.
When I played a shaman within savant (during which time saves were out of control 2017-2018ish) I didn't have trouble against the consumables. It was the cabal healer that seemed to be my issue. Difficult to land mals and instantly cured by healer while I tried to reapply.
I wouldn't mind trying another one today with the equipment changes.
Lol. Sorry that I had to laugh at this. There is no problem with WMs having a gillion eyes to cure blind. One can easily find a Merchant and purchase a gillion gyvels. Thulgan always had like 100 gyvel potions. I spent hours and hours with my BMG trying to burn his stock, just to log off and he would be completely stocked back up next time I seen him. Its easy to stack consumables, period.
2 hours ago, Zhurong said:
Lol. Sorry that I had to laugh at this. There is no problem with WMs having a gillion eyes to cure blind. One can easily find a Merchant and purchase a gillion gyvels. Thulgan always had like 100 gyvel potions. I spent hours and hours with my BMG trying to burn his stock, just to log off and he would be completely stocked back up next time I seen him. Its easy to stack consumables, period.
And Warmaster has the easiest time stocking a much wider range of consumables is the point I was trying to make.
Here are a few things to consider:
I think we can all agree that Mysterum is the lesser of the two sub cabals and contributes to the difficulties perceived in this matchup.
Warmaster have access to a way to cure dysentry
Dysentry itself is not as deadly as it used to be
Warmaster can cure other shaman mals better than non-warmaster
So given the above information, personally this is how I'd approach it (If it was deemed that shamans do infact need a leg up vs wm):
What this will do is allow a one time get out of jail free card for the wm, after which the shaman can continue their normal rotation of spells.
4 hours ago, Wade said:
Here are a few things to consider:
- Shaman can only go mysterum
I think we can all agree that Mysterum is the lesser of the two sub cabals and contributes to the difficulties perceived in this matchup.
- Would allowing them into Temporum be good or bad? Hard to say but none the less it is a factor in the matchup.
This is partly true. A shaman in temporum would be insanely powerful. Deteriorate? Age? Curse? Laugh at this -saves while temporal storm rips them to shreds?
4 hours ago, Wade said:
- Warmaster have access to a way to cure dysentry
A warmaster can cure their dysentry while a non-warmaster can't (Yes, I'm aware of fringe cases but in general the statement is true)
- So this is an added hurdle that is unique to the shaman vs warmaster matchup that dysentry becomes a pre-requisite to landing further mals that can't be cured by consumables.
- Removing cure dysentry herb is a possible solution so that it reverts to being the same as every other matchup for the shaman.
Everyone can now cure dysentery, not just WM. The cost is very high and it isn't that great, but literally anyone can.
4 hours ago, Wade said:
- Dysentry itself is not as deadly as it used to be
Drinking milk can effectively nullify the point of Dysentry, I'd say this is an oversight and should be looked into.
Drinking milk only takes care of one of the affects, the damage. You still can't eat pills which is the point of using it on a WM. Glads can't use town healers, so them having ways to cure it is better than them only fighting near the WM camp.
4 hours ago, Wade said:
- Warmaster can cure other shaman mals better than non-warmaster
Compared to a non-warmaster, the warmaster has access to ways to auto-cure some mals and an array of consumables to combat mals.
- Is it by design that warmaster get an advantage vs maledictive spells? Modifying anything to do with their consumables will impact their matchups vs necros/dks/evil clerics as well so it's a harder case to address.
Since they can't use other herbs besides their own, Glads should have some access to curables, just not stockpiling them so they can negate shaman tactics.
