Random thoughts on Cabals..

[kahlos]

When I first started in FL.. I saw the colorful tags next to some characters' names and said "Wow.. these guys must be immortals!" I even witnessed some cabal guys fighting somewhere in Marak and a decked guy fell and I was almost pissing my pants wanting to full loot the corpse.. although I couldn't (which I now know it's coz of life insurance).

I reached level 45 with a necromancer, highest I've reached, and applied for Savant. I got rejected around 4 times and gave up as my apps were so noobish. I gave up on that char and finally got a caballed pinned character- Syndicate at that. I died so many times, but managed to learn a lot and boost up my confidence in PK. After that, I was able to get a character into every cabal except Herald and Royal. Those were the days when all you needed to do was apply and hope they approve your application.

The cabal application process was changed around mid FL2.0 I think.. now we need to join clans, do quests, and then wait for an immortal to give you the green signal. And then you can apply.

How has this change affected our playerbase? Did it have a significant affect increasing the skill in PK? Did it encourage those who want to be in a cabal to have excellent RP? Most trusted/elders around now don't RP too as far as I know. Not everyone is that good in PK either aside from a select few..

Is it worth having the clans, and the quests, and the imm approval? Are cabals reserved for those who can commit more than an hour a day to play the game?

Im also starting to think that the same players are the ones getting caballed.

I want to be in some cabals.. but the time and effort demanded is just too much for someone who has a fulltime job and a family.

Are they reserved for players who can afford sacrificing 1-2 hours a day to play the game?

Will it actually hurt if we get rid of the clans, and go back to the old process of applying and voting straight-away?

Are cabal wars more fun if there were more members?

Are cabal wars more fun if members are only the select few who excel in RP/PK and are able to commit a lot of time?

Do you like the current setup? Are armies too annoying/frustrating/time consuming?

Looking back.. I think the waiting process does not really make me into a better player. It does prepare one to be in a cabal by learning to chat with clannies, having a base to run to, and obeying heirarchy.. but wouldn't be nearly the same if they learn those things while being inductees of a cabal?

Just some very random thoughts... I for one would love to see cabals full of members again... new and old.

[Deptore]

I personally like the older system better, most of the people I've spoken to have said the same. For one yes it makes it more fair to the people who have less time to play and can't shine as much or might even be on at the wrong time zone and never get seen by their E's or T's. Not only that but I can remember being in my 40's and having great RP and cabal fights with others at that lvl, pushing with armies when there was no group or anyone else to fight and having a blast.

[Evangelion]

I agree and disagree. I think clans are an EXCELLENT way at monitoring characters AS they rank, seeing who might be a good candidate for caballing and who is not fit for it.

I do not, however, think that clans should be a mechanism for weeding out the weak, and determining who will be the BEST in a cabal. The reason for this is simply the high turnover rate of characters. Who the hell cares who's going to be "Johnny Badass" (Hegemon), if he's just going to delete in a week or two. I don't think cabals should be reserved for the best of the best. I think they should be reserved for the people who deserve a chance. The learning curve isn't so steep anymore, and average players are more common than elites.

I also don't think that cabals should be reserved for the addicts. I know that between a full time job, a social life, and, until recently, school, I had between one and three hours every few days to play FL. Did I play more than I should have? Yeah, because I'm an addict. But people who have the self-control to prioritize and play only when there is nothing more important to do shouldn't be ignored.

Not to mention the fact that some of the players who deserve cabals/qraces/qclasses/custom titles/custom items the most seldom get them, because they live in different time zones.

While I'm normally an advocate of not complaining unless you can offer a solution, I'm at a loss here. I don't feel that the system should be like it is now, but I also really can't come up with a way to fix it. I'll get back to you.

[kahlos]

If a character gets inducted into a cabal because majority voted yes on that character's app, without knowing anything about that person, they can always boot him out if he turns out trash anyways yes? Or just leave him as an inductee until he gets "better". At least that cabal will actually have someone instead of a number of wannabes waiting for T's, E's, and Imms to let them apply.

Having lower ranked cabal members are out of the question I think... because of how the warfare system works - getting standards/fighting armies etc. You can't do that well if you cant PK each other.

[kahlos]

While I'm normally an advocate of not complaining unless you can offer a solution, I'm at a loss here. I don't feel that the system should be like it is now, but I also really can't come up with a way to fix it.

Ditto. That's where Celerity comes in.

Just thought it would be good to discuss.

[Evangelion]

Having lower ranked cabal members are out of the question I think... because of how the warfare system works - getting standards/fighting armies etc. You can't do that well if you cant PK each other.

Ah, but what you fail to realize is this:

If pre-pinn caballing becomes frequent like it was back in 2.0, then there will be people in vendetta'd cabals at 30, 40, etc., and they'll fight each other. I remember some fantastic fights between my level 30-odd Knight healer and Tyorik's level 30-odd Nexus invoker. Granted, that was back when healers could gate to people.

[kahlos]

But then that will encourage rank sitting.

I see your point though- that's where the elders/leaders do their job. Members who rank sit should get punished or booted out. It encourages Level 50 to Level 40 and below interaction too.

[Evangelion]

And that's when a fellow cabal member takes the liberty of slapping them with an explusion/demotion vote.

I'm saying that they won't be completely useless at 30, but they still better haul *** to 50, because otherwise their cabalmates are going to ditch them in favor of someone who's going to actually be useful when there's four enemy caballers on, all at pinn.

[Aulian]

Alright my take on this is as follows:

1.Cabals are player run, they should then be well... Player run. The E and L of the cabal NEED MORE POWER. The L should have absolute power over Promo's and Demo's ALONG WITH THE IMM. Im my opinion an E and a L should be allowed to get people to apply to their cabal. THESE ARE PLAYER RUN FACTIONS, or atleast advertised as such.

2. The clans are good, but use them as a pool where players recruit players. Trust me I play alot of Watchers and we have HUGE problems with recruiting people. If we were able to encourage people to join, and allow those we think should be able to join to bloody well join. I lost count of the amount of times I have promo'd someone in the clan, because of something I have seen/was part of only to have the Imm demote them when they log on. Thats not player run, thats imm run.

3. I would like to see way more people in the cabal, so what if they are learning? we were all learning at one time, sure they will get stomped, but if youre with 7 other buddies all getting stomped and helping each other out, hell that would be awesome. Would be like, hey we got stomped, but you had my back and taught me this and this, lets go get at em again and try something different.

4. Forced PK due to a cabal war will MAKE you learn to PK. If you do not have a choice, it will MAKE you learn the skilsl you might be scared of due to eq basic pvp fear.

5. Same people getting cabal'd? Bloody oath it is. It always the same crowd, Its gotten to the point where I can place forum handles to character names due to the way they fight in cabal wars.

EDIT: You know what system rocked? The old knight system of sponsorship... That was awesome.

[kahlos]

Also- I think the reason why the system got changed is cause there was a time where OOC was running rampant and caballed chars had each others AIM and no one can join coz they weren't part of their posse. I very much remember that being a big problem as NO votes would come instantly coz they would know who plays who.

I think the playerbase is over that now.

[Evangelion]

I'd have to agree with the point about the same crowd getting caballed.

Almost all of my characters, since the first time I got into a cabal, have been caballed. I guess it's just getting that first caballed character that's a pain in the ***, and then you're set for life, eh?

But seriously, it really does seem like the same people. Back when I talked to people on AIM, the new-character conversation used to be:

Me: Damn. Acerbity, Belch of Doom and Celerity are all playing Knights.

Festorvian: How do you know?

Me: Because Acerbity's character gives you lip when you kill them, Belch has an ogre ranger archer, and Celerity's character is such a know-it-all.

Festorvian: Want to roll up a Nexus and kick their asses?

Me: Sure.

One month later.

Me: Damn. Aulian, Mindflayer, and Behrens all have Watchers.

The Forsaken: Really? How did you find that out?

Me: Well, Aulian's playing another freaking druid, Mindflayer likes his feral ninja power combo, and Behrens steamrolled me when I was decked, meaning his character was clearly tweaked. (JK )

The Forsaken: Huh... well, let's get some Tribunals going to kick their asses.

Me: Alright, sounds good.

[Aulian]

lol Yeah, exactly

[Lexi]

I like the system as it is. It was far too easy to join a cabal and get promoted in it.

[Aulian]

You have to realise again that the people saying this.. Are the people who get into cabals and do very well in them... We are not thinking about us, we are thinking about the people who deserve the equal chance to be in there with us and to do equally as well..

EDIT: As in, the same people who are always in a cabal, RE Bali's thread

[Celerity]

Alright, so we want people who can't commit all the time in the world to be able to enjoy the game. We also want people who can commit more time to get some benefit for it I think. So, why don't we make the cabal system based on regular promotions? In this system, people who can commit 15 hours a day will advance more quickly because they put in the hours. Those who can play 1 hour every day can also enjoy it--just they'll need to wait longer.

We have the dilemma of reducing OOC corruption while allowing steady progress (basically no imm/player approval). ONE way to solve this is to allow neither the players nor the imms choose when someone can join a cabal. Let the code decide. That will provide the LEAST amount of corruption. The drawback is a potential for huge quality drops. That can be stopped with some checks though.

My idea is that once you join a clan, you are promoted automatically just like in a cabal. After x amount of hours, you become a member, and x all the way to trusted. After y hours at trusted you automatically join the cabal and continue to be promoted up to Member after z hours. At member in the cabal, you need imm/player approval to advance to vet and so on.

What will this do?

It means you don't need an application until potentially M inside the cabal.

It means chars won't delete so easily because the amount hours in your char becomes more important.

In this system people are rewarded more for effort and dedication than pure skill and ooc connections.

It means a lot more people will be in cabals, with varying degrees of skill.

Being a cabal will lose its elitest feeling...being a vet or above will become more important than being inducted.

No IMM/player involvement until M in cabal.

If they are trashy, kick them out...people shouldn't be punished for being at a low skill level though.

Really depends on how many hours you think is nice for auto-advancement. You'll need to raise 5 ranks to reach cabal member, so keep that in mind. Might also want to put a level cap on where you stand. If you are level 30, maybe can't get past V in the clan.

I really DO think it is the same people getting caballed and deleting. I want to see a wider variety and giving incentive to keep playing the same character for awhile. Besides, the game was intended for mass-cabal wars (at least I remember that from a convo with viri) ...not the elitest dueling game it has become.

People don't ever shine until you give them a chance to...

I definitely was NOT in the same cabal as acerbity at the same time....noooooo way. ugh

edit: This an idea I haven't refined very much so what do you think, either way?

edit2: This actually promotes RP...as you have some incentive to stay online outside of PK rushes.

edit3: Being in a cabal at M doesn't give you much in the way of cabal powers...it DOES however make you participate in cabal play, which will prove how you handle it. Best proven by being in it...without all the nice skills yet.

[Aulian]

The only problem I can see with this is over population. Get x hours then X hours then into the cabal? Ah... Yeah..

It means you don't need an application until potentially M inside the cabal.

It think the app at entrance is still a very important part, but how about.. Making that you can apply automatically, then once that gets approved you can put in hours all the way to T... This way if there really is crap comming through it can be filtered before it joins and allows them to put in another 5 hours before they can apply again, and if they havent imporved since the last chance, they can wait another 5 and then apply again. So on and so on.

For instance.

I -M = 10 hours

M-V = 10 hours

V -T = 30 hours

and then the imm/leader of the cabal decide from there.

[Celerity]

Is increased population a problem? You won't get those nice cabal skills yet...you'll just get the tag next to your name and have to play the standard tag game. It is a nice bridge between being a clannie and a real member of the cabal--duties but no gains yet. Maybe stop it at I if you think M is too high.

One of the primary ideas is to switch the focus away from getting INDUCTED to advancing and developing the character -over time-.

[Mister E]

The problem is that you are leaving everything up to raw hours. Now imagine a class that can hide, camo or even gate. They can easily log many more "safe" hours than say a warrior. This also makes clan quests obsolete etc...I like the idea of an automated induction but I suggest the following.

Only pinns should be in cabals, so no matter how many hours you have, you wont get auto-inducted till pinn. Add a clan quest requirement along with hours logged to get promoted wthin the clan so like you might need 10 hours in the clan and 5 clan quests to get M, then 20 hours and 10 quests for V, 30 hours and 15 quests for T or something along those lines. Then when you have been T for 5 more hours you could apply. Since the apply process would be automated the voting would be less automatic. To get in the player would need both a majority yes from other cabalees as well as a yes vote from the Imm, this way players cant use ooc knowledge to vote friends in because the Imm can veto with a no. Also if the Imm votes yes the other cabalees can still vote a majority no to prevent said player from getting in (maybe they saw something the Imm didnt and therefore chose not to allow so and so in).

[Tantangel]

Early 2.0 Cabals allowed a lot more people to become inducted as well. Something like 18 or so? I can't really recall where as now it's only somewhere around 8. Perhaps up that amount up a little, say 13? Then those who have the time to devote 3+ hours a day to a Cabal can still have their way while those who can play up to 3 hours or less still have the ability to get somewhere.

I don't know about the same people getting into Cabals, granted I got into the same Cabal with three different Cabals before leaving but every Cabal aside from that one Cabal I couldn't even come close to getting in them. Hell, I'm having a hard assed time getting into one now and I've got like 280-300 hours split between two characters already.

So upping the amount of people in a Cabal and allowing Celerity's idea to go up to either Inductee or Member in the Cabal and it's set. 10 hours from I to M in clan, then 10 from M to vet and instead of 30 hours, maybe 20 for Trusted. From there they can stop until inducted into the Cabal and once they get Elder in Cabal get Elder in Clan and so forth and leave ranking system as is (10 hours for every promotion up until Veteran) and still stop at Inductee so that they could be considered whether or not they should advance/kicked out and then go from there. Still needing Cabal promotion from V to T.

[Celerity]

To solve the problem of people sitting at thirty and training to gain hours...

Make it so at 30, you can get to say M in the clan. When you hit 40 or whatever the next requirement is, you need x more hours--starting from when you the rank.

So unless you hide at rank 50 for that many hours, it should be hard to abuse that way.

[Aulian]

Although its not hard, there are a few holes not many people know about that are quite safe with a little bit of milk and a some water. Thgen again people not seen doing their business will not be advancing/accepted further into the cabal will they? Hrmmm

[Celerity]

Think of it this way...if you are in the clan at 50 hiding..you have no obligation to be doing anything anyways. You can do what you want. Same as an uncaballed hiding now.

If you are I or M in the cabal and doing that, you have the same penalties as ignoring your duties now.

[Iyorvin]

Wow. I can not believe someone just said we want early 2.0 cabals back. Do you REMEMBER the people who got leaders back then? I remember killing an L savant who started whining to imms that a lvl 5 person just killed him. WTF? I remember a JUSTICE L who didn't know what sanc was. Come on. I don't care what your points are, the fact is the system now is better then seeing crap like that. I used to brag about my L's in cabals, until seeing that.

I will admit to Celerity that I like her idea. Not so much as it being code ran, but the fact of each IMM having a pre-thought promotion/induction platform. I know certain cabals, Prax for one, has a really well thought induction platform. When I played my previous Trib I wasn't even on when a) I was promoted from I to T in clan; when I was approved to apply for the cabal, c) when I was promoted to T in cabal. The same applied for my next character.

So we have a quest based clan system that allows your IMM to see what you have done at any time. You would rather train? Fine. You would rather pk? Fine. But the IMM is going to be looking through those quests FIRST to see what's done.

I'm not bashing anyone here. I just don't like seeing another useless thread about something that is far from an absolute needing change, while there are other things in the game that need attention first.

Sorry NZ boy, but I don't agree.

[Kyzarius]

I dont understand people saying its hard to get cabaled. My last six characters (and i Typically play one at a time) have all been cabaled and 5 of them have hit trusted...

[Questioner]

Knight sponsorship is still possible. I believe there was a dwarf cleric Tansi (sp?) that was inducted to Knight as a squire of Ecasio. Had a cool title.