The general level of this mud appears to be dropping

[Kyzarius]

Dobson,

I am not whining..I am stating what I observe.

My current takes on multiple opponents and does quite well I think.

Despite that though it is still distasteful practices that I am pointing out. Practices that effect not just those who could be labeled "vets" but everyone. People have been so concerned about newbies lately and how to keep them. Well when new players get killed by multiple people, or tag teamed, or temple camped...well, I am sure they are less likely to stick around

Its not just the vet's that suffer from the "poor sportsmanship" evident in pkill lately. Its Everyone.

and man, really, keep the flames out of it.

[Dobson]

So then let me take your example, you say we should be more newbie friendly.

How is it going to look if a newibe gets ganged by a group at lvl 40 and full looted while he was minding his own business. He is going to be upset at that fact and probably want revenge, of course he is going to probably get killed and again be ticked. Let's say he learns about the forum, check out the recent posts and see complaints left and right about downward spirals of characters, I wouldn't want to stay. Oh you want to encourage newbies? Well people who are expressing their views on how the mud PBase is going downhill in public is not going to encourage growth, it hinders it. You re-enforce the mud by participating in helping the newbs so that they can get the good and the bad, instead of just the bad.

If you really wanted to help them out, follow the old saying.

"If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all." Unless you are me and making a point about whiners. If you focus on the negative then it will be negative, if you focus on the positive you move forward.

As plainly as I can say it folks....

Start pushing yourselves further instead of blaming other people for your lack of effort. Silent PK'rs are not a problem. Gangers are not a problem. Even OOC buddy workers are not the problem. It is people who are presented with a situation to further another char and choose to label them as trash rather than help them. No one who plays this gave for any length of time is out there to make all of the other characters mad and delete. They are just doing what makes the game fun for them regardless. If you talk to them, in a respectful manner, you can always make a difference in their level of play. You can't hope to fix the problem unless you know what it is. They are not looking to make you mad, they are looking to make themselves feel good.

Remember that as you rip apart my words and whatever else, but we have some people who make a difference and we have people who complain because they don't want to work on it.

[Kyzarius]

I am sorry, but my lack of effort?

what do you know of my effort?

the eyes in the sky can attest that such is quite thorough...and my effort to not fall into the mold of as you say...whineing...and on the flip side not join the bygones is evident across every character I play.

You say to say something nice or not at all, yet you blatantly bash, not my point but me.

The FACT is that we have seen an increased amount of pk that involves tact that is accepted by the majority of players as in bad taste. Many have complained and many have brought it up. That is all.

Now if you can say that this isnt the case, then please, do so...and show me where you have had a wholley different experience. But dont come bashing my personal effort to maintain a fair/fun playing environment for my allies and foes in game.

[Celerity]

Yes, quiet obedience to the system may make the system stronger

but who is to say that the stronger system will be better for the players? Totalitarian governments are based on blind obedience...

it should be kept in mind that people who are not softly demure are also working to improve the system rather than censoring themselves to maintain some status quo

somebody could argue that those are the very people ruining (for the players even!) the game whereas someone else might say they are the key to bringing the MUD to an entirely new level

no matter how you look at it, neither person is happy with the things way are now (one person doesn't like people complaining saying it hurts the atmosphere whereas the other doesn't like the atmosphere)...so either way, talking and questioning (constructively!) is instrumental in changing it to either end!

if you are content with people complaining AND the system as it is, feel free to hold your peace and self-censor yourself into silence...

that the person who is advocating self censorship didn't actually censor their own complaint (about the complainers) shows that even he thinks speaking out will help (as he talks about not speaking out)...so he should accept other people doing it too.

[Kyzarius]

that last sentence makes me dizzy cel.

[Celerity]

basically...

the person was complaining about complainers. He said if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all. Well, he had nothing nice to say and he certainly talked. He should listen to his own advice if he wants credibility!

[Dobson]

basically...

the person was complaining about complainers. He said if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all. Well, he had nothing nice to say and he certainly talked. He should listen to his own advice if he wants credibility!

I had a disclaimer, so bite me.

The point was not to bash Kyzarius, he just happened to be above me when I posted, and then he replied too it. The point was to say that if you don't like the smell of someone farting you dont fart yourself so you have your own flavor in the air.

I am not talking about complaining in general, I am talking about the complaints of how this MUD is this, and that, and the players as a whole are this and that. I have never been so happy to play a pk oriented char ever, it is loads of fun never knowing which way it is coming from. You could go bash happy and kill everyone if you wanted too! The worste thing you can do is be negative ESPECIALLY if you are a leader OF ANY SORTS.

And yes, being a mentor is being a leader Kyzarius, so if you are so apt in game at helping newbies then keep on trucking bro, I am right there next to you. All I am saying is that you have to put a positive spin on things or else they will only get worse.

It wasn't long ago that everyone was so ticked at the lack of rp. What changed that? A FEW GOOD CHARS DOING OUTSTANDING JOBS ON RP. Not the PBASE AS A WHOLE. So, what is it I say to you? Be one of those few good chars that inspires others as you travel along. Not whine in public to make yourself feel better. And I know fully well that this thread is a tad hostile, but it is not aimed at anyone in particual, but at the people who would rather complain than get dirty and fix the problem.

Celerity,

This is not an overthrow of the government, taking arms and crying foul won't work and you bloody well know it. This is a social understand of other players and where they are in terms of PK ethics. This needs to be handled on a case to case BY THE STAFF. Not whined about on the forum.

[goldbond]

OOC is the ultimate bane of a MUD. I've always hated it, but always realized it cant be stopped. The sole comfort is the hope the OOC'ers maintain at least a minimal level of self-respect with it.

Players here with exceptional skill can easily gauge the skill of a PK'ee just by seeing the commands that player chose in battle, how he fled, his general actions. A real measure of class is for the elite player to not bask in Rambo glory and cut the guy some slack.

The pbase is considerably smaller for a prolonged period of time. And frustrations among some people will continue to be elevated due to the lack of variety in playstyles, fewer potential opponents, fewer potential opposing cabals being at good strength, and other things.

The overall attitude of this thread has gotten a lot more dysfunctional and should probably be locked, however the kind of statements, observations and viewpoints here shouldnt be banned from the forum. If you look at really old forums of FL, muckraking and such was commonplace but with that comes self-control and much need venting. Almost everyone who posts on this current forum actually shows remarkable self-constraint.

[Ex-D&Der]

If there's a lot of trashy play, the upside may be that it is in fact due to newer players. Perhaps it's not a discouragement of newer players so much as a sign of them. In that sense Dobson may have a point that the remedy is to act as a role model, not to bash them on the forum. If it means you get killed once in a while by a gang or harassed by trash talk, well, so what? I don't think there should be a comfort zone for more honorable players. PK is not duelling. If this MUD needs anything it's more players.

There are limits--Slirtdan's multiple players and Tyron/Vharish were real problems. But things like that should be handled on the prayer forum. Complaining in general terms in this forum can't really ameliorate that.

[Lexi]

If there's a lot of trashy play' date=' the upside may be that it is in fact due to newer players. Perhaps it's not a discouragement of newer players so much as a sign of them. In that sense Dobson may have a point that the remedy is to act as a role model, not to bash them on the forum. If it means you get killed once in a while by a gang or harassed by trash talk, well, so what? I don't think there should be a comfort zone for more honorable players. PK is not duelling. If this MUD needs anything it's more players.[/quote']

It doesn't happen once in a while. It happens all the time. Personally, I've been discouraged to log on lately, considering spending my time somewhere else. It is just not worth my effort when I try to accomplish something, i.e getting a kill, getting some armors, cabal warfare, etc, when I lose everything because people attack and kill me several at a time. Almost every time. I don't see how this contributes to the mud at all, or why I should be fine with it.

Why would I want to play a game where my personal skill level does not matter because I repeatedly get killed by numerous people, some of which would probably be able to take me out on their own had they used the tools at their disposal.

Re Dobson:

Just because I can't handle five people at a time doesn't mean they are trash. Just because they fight the same person five at a time makes them trash. That is a very important distinction. As you said, we've all found our tricks, cheap or otherwise, and we can all make the choice of using the cheap or using the otherwise. As simple as that.

And this game is not about fairness, it is about balance. I have always loved the balance in FL, how classes do well versus some other classes, and bad against others. How the more skilled player can overcome his or her opponent by using clever, and not cheap, tactics. Throw in multiple opponents and balance is gone.

EDIT:

This game is not about finding the most buddies to gank the most people with the hugest groups just because they are caballed or have good equipment. I feel sick to my stomach just thinking about it that way.

[Mmm Coffee]

Well there's a difference if the ganging is happening by cabal'd chars or non-caballed and I'll tell you why.

Using numbers to gain the advantage is natural. However, the balance of this mud is based on 1-on-1. The balance begins to tip when you start throwing in cabal abilities. A caballed person, generally, has some skill advantage over his/her non-caballed opponent and a smart opponent knows when they are out-gunned so to speak. So that opponent may resort to getting another non-caballed person to help them fight. That's fine, so you may die, may win, either way it will probably be fun...until you get back to your corpse and find nothing left. Which brings me to my next topic.

Full-looting itself is not a problem. What I believe is a problem is how easy it is to do using the "get all corpse" command or "ord all get all corpse". I mean let's be somewhat realistic, it takes time to disrobe a body, especially one wearing a lot of armor. I think that looting a corpse should be a one-item-at-a-time command with a small time delay so you can't just spam get 1. corpse;drop 1. or whatever. Same for ordering pets to do it. In fact, instead of a time-delay, removing the ability to use the variable "1." (if that's possible) it would make the person actually have to look at the corpse heh.

[Ex-D&Der]

Well if this is being done by caballed players outside of appropriate cabal warfare, or by caballed players with non-caballed players interfering, then we're not talking about newbies, and instead we're talking about abuse. Caballed players are supposed to be held to a higher standard.

[Goomf]

You guys are aware that trying to deter ganging, while making the game somewhat a little bit more friednly, does in fact limit the prospect of character interaction, rp and pk wise, a great deal more? I don't by any means enjoy ganging/being ganged, but I don't bitch about it either in any way, shape, or form.

[Lexi]

I don't mind ganging. I mind repetetive ganging. I thought I stated that quite clearly in my post.

[Goomf]

Never got a chance to read anything else besides the last post.

[Icor]

I really hope this doesn't get locked. Reading this is entertainment.

[Calron]

People have the mentality that choosing not to fight is something that is looked down on. While it only covers the most basic things, refer to L-A's PKing guide and notice the many many references to "Rule 1".

If you aren't completely prepared, you shouldn't be fighting. If your opponent is more prepared, you shouldn't be fighting. If you are getting ganged and you know you can't handle it, then don't fight.

Very rarely is there a gang where you are completely laglocked to death or you have no opportunity to run. Normally, you choose to stay and try to kill the one person.

To use a personal example, the other day I was fighting someone I most likely could have ended up killing pretty easily had I been alone. However, I noticed a certain somebody hovering around the area so I was certain not to let my health go beyond a certain point so as to give myself leeway to escape if I was attacked by the second. So yeah, I just managed to miss my kill. Upside? I still have my equipment and my life, and its just as easy to go kill said person later.

Conclusion: If you don't feel like you are reasonably safe, then don't fight. I'm not saying run, run away from a cabal enemy just because he's better equipped than you. However, if you know you are going to get your head on a pike, as L-A said, or if you think you're going to be the subject of a gang you can't handle, then try again later.

[Raargant]

This MUD is not focused solely on PK balance. Sometimes I think people get too hung up on that. This MUD isn't a 'testing ground of your skills'; it's an immersive world, and there are people who are going to want you dead. While there are situations which will get my goat (and most of them revolve around stomping mudholes abusively against newbies and being jackoffs), gangbangs honestly aren't one of the bigger ones for me as an IMM, although as Knight IMM, of course, I have different views with regards to my own people.