Tom Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Since the character is deleted there's no reason not to have this here. RE: Kyzarius Let's try to keep this just a little less combative/defensive tonewise. We have a disagreement, and I can assure you it's nothing personal on this end, so we can stick to logical specifics rather than sarcastic generalizations. If you could provide numbers to back your argument up, I'd appreciate that too. I already told you I disagree with his losing tactics; I have killed DKs twice with monks since the changes. Once with Dragon and and once with Horse stance, and I have not lost to a DK. My margin was significantly higher with Horse. The fact that I disagree more strongly with your as yet unproven (in this discussion) tactics is in no way a complete endorsement of Zrothum's. I stand by the Dragon disarm tactic over the passive Monkey attacktic. Zrothum did disarm the DK quite early, however the DK continued to parry as he had been wielding a secondary weapon. By the time Zrothum disarmed DK completely, he had put on a shield and negated the defense advantage. The real issue is, provided Zrothum was correct about the equality to their equipment/preparation and his +H2H, wthe DK overevaded the monk's attacks and the monk underevaded the drow's. As far as tiger stance, part of his problem was the drow evading his attacks, and the tiger - to HR will compound that. He'll have roughly the same number of attacks, and they'll be less likely to hit. When they do hit they can be excellent, I agree, but the tradeoff in this situation'll do more harm than good. I'm curious what protections you're removing from a DK with a level-3 bolt. It can't be protective or reflective shield, the skills it seems to be aimed at. Was it shield, as I had postulated, or perhaps armor (I can't remember if armor is removed by L3bolt)? I'll agree with you that the monkey chakeras usually outperform the dragon's, if you can hit often enough. However, when you say it speeds you up that you LAND several hits per round, I think what you meant is that you have several attacks per round; whether they hit or not is determined by HR just as in Dragon. Your thrash/trip idea is well and good against a human DK with a dex disadvantage, but a drow? I'll admit you have gotten me interested in testing whether air thrash (lagged less than a round last time I used it on an elf) lags better in Monkey stance than Dragon, if you've proven that feel free to bring it up, but if it's only a theory I'd prefer solid facts to rhetoric. - Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyzarius Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Solid fact is, out of five battles with Dk's two lost with dragon, three won with monkey. The victories were unquestionable and I dominated the fights. If you dont agree, fine..look forward to fighting your monks with my Dk's If I ever make one again. Truth is, Dragon is very poor against melee classes. Monkey, or even crane, will have you walking over the darknight easy enough. You should experiement more with chii bolt, as it removes more than just protective shield. I will not discuss details here, as its an ingame thing I will say, however, that it does land a significant amount of lag on its own...a "side-effect" often overlooked by many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarduarkar Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Maybe slightly off-topic... But I loved the log. It was hilariously amusing (due to the comments laced throughout). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CruelEdict Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Priceless log. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted July 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 You should experiement more with chii bolt' date=' as it removes more than just protective shield.[/quote'] Shield and armor, and other "barrier" types, but consider the numbers. The spells I can realistically drop when I'm fighting a melee are shield and armor. Let's say he's got AC like the following (taken from a PK log for relative realism): Slash : -284 Pierce: -271 Blunt : -294 Magic : -198 Since the monk's attack without bolt at level 2 varies between the three physical damage types, we'll consider the average, -283. If I have to choose between taking Chii Bolt to level 3, or keeping it at level 2, I'm going to keep it at 2 vs. an averagely equipped melee almost every time. Why? Because using the bolt to neutralize those spells will actually take away less AC than simply taking advantage of the difference between magic damage versus the physical types, so level 3 loses out in that regard. Given the additional boost to AC for myself by staying at level 2 it becomes even more attractive. In addition, in order to reap the smaller AC-dropping benefits of killing armor/shield against a melee, I have to use bolt at the very beginning of the combat. Usually, even a half-melee won't be trying to get away from you at the very beginning, and a smart one won't stack commands while lagged from your bolt, so the lag is *almost* wasted. Since level 2 also lags, by using it I can take advantage of seeming to fight a worse-equipped melee opponent for most of the combat, then lagging him at the end, thereby admittedly increasing his -AC for the last bit, but being okay with that because the lag should be enough to finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-A Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 I've never played a monk - but using offensive gives you, two(?) defenses? Against dual wielding+charmie DK is that a good idea? The DK can put out possible 6 (realistically, probably 4) attacks a round. A properly selected charmie will do 2 - 4 as well. That's 6 attacks at a minimum. Then comes fireball/iceball. Or worse, bash..... A monk as a change at, five or six(?) A little more with haste? Defenses are even, but not afflictive spells here. Would horse not be a better solution against a class that can put out so much melee damage? Horse will negate the bash factor as well. I fought a monks in both offensive and defensive as a DK. Offensive seemed to be very, very easy to outdamage wtih high melee output and lag. I also fought a monk in horse - I was still able to overcome them however I was hurt a fair bit more. Just my 2c. L-A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted July 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Agreed, Horse would be my choice as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talcian Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Also Drow's have good Dex, which leads to better AC, which I'm "thinking" reduces the amount of damage you take. Another possible factor could be protection. DK's get it, so its more than likely up, but maybe the monk didn't have it up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsestomp Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Horse against a DK seems like a deathwish, since they can just throw fire/iceballs at you... DK with a polearm, charmie and a select few mals, then throw the fireballs. I would almost say crane with level 2 hands would be best, try to put out some damage while keeping them lagged with thrash/trip. With scrolls and staves, you can get detect magic to make sure that charmie is against them at the right time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarduarkar Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 I agree with L-A. If you go offensive, you will just be eaten alive by all that damage (especially if they have nice malforms). Horse for several reasons: - Use their own melee damage against them. The stronger they are, the harder it's reversed. - Horse makes you a little more resilient to magic (it helps) - Helps against bashing on top of balance ALWAYS keep Dk blinded. Kick if you know you have plenty of time in the tick and they wanna try a fireball damage war. Learn to chase with murder since you cannot lag them in defensive. Now, I haven't played a monk in ages, and I heard they were revamped. It may also be worth looking into Drunken Stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiegel06 Posted July 4, 2007 Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 many people keep forgetting a few things: and they are to help negate the area spell fight in a place with either many mobs, or one strong mob. Plus there are places where one can fight and get aid from mobs (of course one must be good). Also buy a pet, you can get two pets as any class with scrolls, they might die fast but at least you are pushing some attacks on him. On the note of crane stance you also get the special strikes that come with it and those will be useful against a DK. You can also gain things to make you larger plus a scroll of flying to help prevent trip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tassinvegeta Posted July 4, 2007 Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 Forget about monks, how bout them dk's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deykari Posted July 4, 2007 Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 I have never played either class to pinn so dismiss what I'm saying here if it's way out of line, but going offensive against a DK w/ charmie doesn't seem like a good idea. Going offensive means that you lose lag protection and defenses. Assuming the DK is outdamaging you (bearing in mind what L-A said about the attacks from both the DK and charmy against two defenses), the DK can lag whilst the pet will randomly lag with the right charmie choice. Even if the DK doesn't lag and goes for say, fireball, last thing you want is a battle where you would have won with a kick, only to get bashed by DK's charmie and then killed with a fireball a moment later. The point about horse not working well because the DK can still fireball you is moot, as fireball is very easily saved against and it shouldn't be hard at all to find some basic afflcitive saves whilst keeping hit/dam where you want them. It's icy counterpart may cut through the saves like a hot knife through butter, but it's damage output is less. Can you still kick in horse stance? Didn't think you could kick in defensive stances, but I may be wrong. I think it depends a lot on EQ difference. If the DK is decked then you can't really afford to be dropping into offensive unless you're decked and have something up your sleeve. As with what seems to be the case with most monk fights, going offensive increases the chance of bagging the kill, but greatly increases your chance of getting killed too. That's all I'm going to say, as I'm not qualified to say anything else. If Kyzarius is right about monkey hitting chakeras a lot more often, then that could definitely be one of the best options. I'd like to hear of his experiences in defensive though, if he tried it. Seems not many people favour the defensive stances. I'd love to play a monk and try this stuff out, but you won't catch me doing the training anytime soon.. Dey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aulian Posted July 4, 2007 Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 Can you still kick in horse stance? Didn't think you could kick in defensive stances, but I may be wrong. Dey You can.. Go master meditation of blades newb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deykari Posted July 4, 2007 Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 I'd rather not practice meditation of blades and have the ten extra HP, to be fair. Dey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venom Posted July 4, 2007 Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 Crane stance. Experience with things that makes giant size, experience with other helpful potions and things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-D&Der Posted July 4, 2007 Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 One tactical thing when he was disarmed the second time it was just after dirt had worn off, so he was able to wear his shield. Obviously you want to be sure he is dirted before disarming. OTOH it looks like he was using a rearm trigger so if you had waited to redirt he might have wielded his weapon on the tick instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted July 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 Can you still kick in horse stance? I see what was going on here! This was Dey's across-the-pond Independence Day gift, letting the Americans among us feel superior to an Englishman. Thanks, buddy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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