What if battle mages could shapeshift? Alter their "race" to an alternative. Then even gnome battle mages could acquire a high dex if that is what they need to win. It would give battle mages an advantage no other mages have when facing anatomy classes. Just food for thought.

Invokers are probably in the best place out of the mages (perhaps on par with necros), they're the only ones that have a spell that scales at all (call lightning). I'd wait until Lloth does his massive item overhaul to see how things go, from the sounds of things it won't be possible to stack hitroll, damroll and saves to their current level.

Feeling like invokers are not nearly as appealing as they used to be. Basically, if the person has low saves, use fire or ice shield and arrow/icicle. If the person is decked, call lightning is insta death. However, smart people figure out how to suit to avoid high ac and grab tons of aff saves. To the point where it's hard to even get caps damage. There are also now items that add resistance to specific elements, which is brutal. Once someone figures out how to avoid high ac and get good aff saves, and learns to reput sanc.in combat, invokers become very ineffective. I end up basically spamming dispel hoping to burn through their sanc source and that they won't reset other buffs, then spamming hellstream, trying to destroy saves items. The problem is hellstream has been toned.it used to just blow armor up, not it takes multiple hits to the same item to destroy it. Rarely if ever does hellstream destroy a saves.item, fulfilling it's purpose to invokers to help drop off saves. In general, there are also alot of saves gear around that is either.not rare or not very rare, so it's very hard to be effective. I feel like invokers need a new way to drop off saves. Maybe lower the dam output if hellstream in exchange for either it lowering aff saves each cast or letting the user target a specific item to destroy, because randomly hitting the right item enough to destroy it makes hellstream nearly useless for dropping aff saves. Thoughts?

Need more

Some things: Plambus manambus... is good because it auto casts an invisible slow on your oponent. (that why you can't slow them sometimes). I think dancing blades also deflect attacks, but very rarrely. BMG defences suck, when compared with a warrior or a DK/Paladin wielding a polearm. BMG terra shield is a lot worse than shield block or dodge. Blur is even more craptastic, but used to be HITROLL imune. Blades defense is even worse. BMG's appear to defend better vs mobs, because they have lots of autoAREAattacks, so they kill stuff faster, so appear to defend better. VS players I prefer DK's defences. BMG's dancing blade has trouble hitting through defences, but does good damage. Blades hit a lot more often but deal lower damage. A smart oponent can force a BMG to either chose to fight blind from dirt, or to run to water and fight without Terra shield. It's better to fight on water, because parry it's their best defence. Most of BMG spells are Maledictive dependent. But they have no way to break saves, so they struggle vs moderate/high saves characters. Slow has the problem that people will just dirt and sleep outregening you. BMG should have access to regeneration prevention on enemy. Âirshield = resistance to phisical damage like giants. Meteor swarm is the highest non quest POTENTIAL damage spell on the game, but you need to roll well. Not even talking about deathhead. It's extremely underused because people don't understant that it's a burst finisher (but only if you roll well). Rust is an extremely useful spell for meele debuffing. BMG blinds suck, because: color spray sucks sear only dependable on noon, and YOU DON?T FIGHT A BMG ON NOON in the open, unless you are stupid. flashfire is not reliable, and being an area spell, means you can agro stuff. Very bad if you goodie. BMG aren't that bad, they just need a couple stuff to get their edge back: Terra shield working on Water. A simple 101% prof turning terra to water shield on water would solve it. A way to break saves so their maledictive spells actual work. Magic missile like DK's got a few years back is the ideal. And idealy: Reflective shield being brought back to also charging on magic damage. Terra shield deflecting arrows again. They have scrolls, but it's a nice perk. What BMG's don't need is a complete overhall that complete ruins the atmosphere of one of the most unique classes on FL. Seriously, most of the tools are there, we just can't use them. How many of you actualy bothered to shrink another with a BMG? I know that I don't, because it's so dam hard to land it. It's more viable to just sharpmetal. And I used shrink/slow on many of my clerics, because a very good strategy. Classic BMG movies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zu_Warriors_from_the_Magic_Mountain https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWJEr8RGixI

A path for battlemages being able to imbue their key spells like blades and dancing blade with special properties seems like a good idea. A flaming scythe, a poisonous blade, or a icy shards. Each with chances for different affects. Would take some tweaking to make sure no path is exceptionally OP but would liven up the class dramatically allowing them to perhaps even choose to counter melees rogues or casters. The cool thing about battlemage to me is that it's so open to being so many things. A mage who is well suited for battle. Vague enough to not fit into a box unless you want it to.

I made battlemage every time there was a WM leader and I killed them all. Senrail feral ranger L. Chestas wm ogre war L. And a halfling something or other. Also killed tricks knight elder ogre ranger. Most of these battles except senrail felt easy. I play bmages a little different than most though. That being said they still felt lacking against certain combos. Crusaders especially

As far as I'm aware, no. THAC0 is included in rolls involving AC and does not involve itself in any parry, dodge or other defense rolls. Lowering THAC0 for battlemages would make it easier for them to hit with held weapons as no other spell (with the exception of dancing blade) uses THAC0 to calculate hits. Dancing blade uses its own.

I played one semi recently and my biggest gripe was they aren't very tanky. Id almost want them to play like a warrior that uses spells instead of abilities and currently they're don't feel any less squishy than any other mage.

I like to consider myself one of the best battlemage players in this game. I'm a little ignorant on some of the points of code. Wouldn't a thac0 change for battlemages put their defenses more on par with the hit/dam powercreep? I've long been an advocate of a flashfire buff, it's just too unreliable. I think they should also have a more potent faerie fire. Rust is a separate animal but a battlemage should be able to put a huge hit into ac. Maybe give colour spray or sharpmetal some path options. A corrosive battlemage looks cool in my head. Mmmmmm.

I've been thinking about battlemages for some time, and what I'd like to see them as (Just my opinion of course.) I had thought about them being more melee, toss sharpmetal but give them third attack and enhanced damage. Change meteor swarm to something akin to melf's miniature meteors. Gives them a fired weapon for x hours or has x charges. Change flashfire to be reliable, like an aoe dirt kick with a 0 hour blind. I'd like to see rust be their main bread and butter, where it can damage gear overtime. Without having to use sharp metal they can focus on disarms, rusts and such. I'm sure the balance of this would be way off, but just some thoughts.

As you said, got to get the ball rolling somewhere, eh? Let's clear some things up first. Keep in mind that outside Madness, I haven't played a BMG in quite some time. The defenses of a battle mage vs the rest of the casters and communers are woefully lopsided. Invokers get parry. They're glass cannons, after all. Or at least they're supposed to be. Necros get parry and pets. Clerics (and their sub-classes) get parry and shield block. Battlemages get parry, terra shield, blur, blades (yes, blades already parry people's attack), plumbum manus (opponents get -STR and up to -1 attack) and to a lesser degree, reflective shield. To add dancing blade to their defenses is a bit overkill. Besides, that one already has the chance to trip, disarm or do a multi-attack. The only thing the suggested elemental shield does is get rid of the vulnerability of terra shield in that it doesn't work on water or air, and gives it a cosmetic change. By itself, a change here isn't necessary. However, to build on the suggestion, we can add and tweak it to suit our needs, though you do this with the former air-shield-now-magical-vortex to give the elemental shield extra abilities. Whether or not it's viable is a different story. If nothing else, it's an exercise in creativity. So depending on where we cast it, we get an <element> shield which does some extra things, depending on where you cast it. Going with the Latin motif: Terra-shield: Does not work on water/air; has a chance to block dirt kicks or as mentioned above, caltrop-like effect. Aer-shield: Works anywhere; can push opponent out of the room or into a wall (as the skill) - dispels the shield and has cooldown. Sure, or paralyze from lightning. Ignis-shield: Works anywhere; missile immunity, perhaps, as passive damage is an invoker's thing and doing a fireblind would give BMG's 4 ways to blind you. Aqua-shield: Does not work on land/water; moves reduction or as mentioned above, poison-like effect. So hybrids with curing is depable? Get it? Because it's deplorable without lor... ah, forget it. We've got one hybrid class with an arcane cure light wounds: dark knights. Ninjas have cure light as well, but they're still considered rogues (melee). Sorry. That is correct that no wizard (caster) has cure light wounds. BMGs are the only casters that can heal themselves, though. Cure light heals for 1d8+16 (17-24 [20.5 avg]) hp per cast, one round lag at 10 mana/cast. Field dressing is 250 hp for 2 rounds of lag at 50 mana/application. Both have their uses. One is the long game, curing in increments as you go. The other is a large chunk of health and you're right back in the fray. I think they're fine with field dressing, especially considering that they, too can use various consumables such as the red and white staves, scrolls of healing and nymph hearts. This aspect I believe doesn't need changing. BMGs can get high hit/dam. They can get high saves and high -AC, too. What's been mentioned is the inability to get past the other classes that are able to do the same thing. The suggestion for the rust change, for example, is a start down that path. For the record, I still love Foxx's suggestion on that.

I figure those in this club should be the most interested in developing a balanced and exciting rework for the battle mage class. We know the class needs reworked. We know it will eventually be reworked. Why not let the conceptual ideas that drive that change come from the Casters Corner? The trouble with the reworking of the Battle Mage is that they operate differently than other arcane casters. Invokers and Necromancers are designed to shock and awe their opponents with massive damage outputs very quickly. The Battle Mage concept has always been a game of hit and run, having greater protections than their enemies, they should be able to wear their enemies down. With the current atmosphere of Aabahran and the insane numbers achievable by almost any class, the Battle Mages tactic has become obsolete. Through the use of consumables, other classes can armor themselves easily as greatly as any Warmage. I have not played many Battle Mages, because I get frustrated by level 40 and delete. So if I misunderstand a spell/skill correct me. These are the things I believe we should look into to get the battle mages back in competition without making them the greatest class of all time. Defenses- Terra shield blocking attacks aids in the battle mages ability to stay in combat longer than other mages. A must keep in my opinion, and I really like the purposed Idea that the spell name and ability be modified. Elemental Shield would use the same spell mechanics but the shield would be crafted from the element the wizard stands on. (Fire/Ice/Water/Earth/Air) If I can block your attack with my elemental shield, why can I not parry your attack with my scythes or dancing blade? I think adding an equal chance for avoiding an attack through the dancing blade would aid in defense. Healing- I have often found it depLOREable, totally without lore, that we have hybrids running around casting an arcane version of cure light wounds, but NO true wizard knows the spell. Field dressing is just not enough with the way the system is melting away health. The Battle mages need some way to heal that is more reliable more often. Cure light wounds may be the answer. Air Shield- If terra shield becomes an elemental shield there would be a possibility of dual air shields, I must omit that outcome. So I suggest we change air shield to Magical Vortex. It would still apply -ac to physical attacks but have further reaching affects on the Elemental shield the Battle Mage is adorned with. The elemental shield would react at times in a violent manner very much like a similar weapon prog. (smoke to blind, ice shards to weaken, a water spout that poisons, a lightning arc that may stun, small pebbles that may caltrops) Of course this is just a few Ideas to get you talking, I do not see this as an insurmountable problem, merely one that will require intelligent people to speak rationally and keep the Goal foremost in our thoughts moving forward. Look forward to your Ideas.

I win!

Mellees op.

Testing the first reply.

Testing the clubs functionalism.