Ninja's!

Well, I guess I'll be called out here. I have never been assasinated, not once. However, Tetsunai once got very close to assassinating Azaghtoth. Only reason I didn't get assassinated is because I am very aware of what was happening, and decided it was time to high tail it. If he'd have got his hands on me, I'd of been toast.

I have to agree that assassination is too easy. Through my experiences, I personally feel it is extremely easy to run circles around people and not get tagged. I've had hundreds of people do this to me, and I've also done it to hundreds of people. It is very hard to catch and engage someone if they are not lagged and do not want to be caught. With this in mind. If I played a ninja, I think I'd find it very easy to get assassinations. You don't even need to hide, apart from when you do your meditation, infact, its probably better to not hide and give your opponent that glimmer of hope.

But, I guess I fall into that hypocritic category of those who've not been assassinated and still think it needs tweaking. Or perhaps, this makes my opinion more valid as its not an emotional outburst after being assassinated. This and my lack of being assassinated is because of a few reasons. A) I'm alot more alert and careful the most I've played a number of vampires and invokers (firestorm being the only thing saving me from being assassinated). As I mentioned though, I still almost managed to get assassinated as a vampire, BEFORE the ninja paths.

I'd love to roll another vampires and be a ninja hater, Azaghtoth hated ninjas, many got multikilled (yes, as in multiple times in one session). Yes, the days when I was a blood thirsty bastard - you guys saw nothing with Philantees.

You are correct we saw nothing with Philantees but only because vampire in nexus is bigger imba.

snip

Now, while I agree with the bigger part of your post, I don't agree that we should leave certain problems because there are others more important ones.

Yes, we can postpone them for a while, but they will need to be looked at when time allows it. It is exactly for things like that people leave. You talk about it, discuss it, you bring many valid points and still the only real solution you are being given is "log off" or "run away". How do you want me to play a game when I am supposed to log off or run away when ninja enters?

And if you think anyone plays melee ninjas nowadays you are wrong. Even Kaylia who was an attrition based ninjas was killing more people with assassinate than with actual attrition.

I am starting to think that I actually have to roll a falcon eye and make a name of myself as good assassin just to get things changed. Oh, you know what, Celerity already did that:

Ninja. This is a big topic for me. Assassinate...Kaylia was lotus scourge, not falcon eye. After EXTENSIVELY playing a 75% assassinate-only ninja, I can say that I think assassinate should go or needs major tweaking. If, for some reason, assassinate does stay, it should be made into STEALTH only. I never did the flee/study game, but I know it could be done and fairly easily at that. Study should require the full 5 ticks (no stopping at one or two ticks to meditate) and if the ninja is engaged AT ALL, they should lose the study.

But honestly, I think assassinate should just go.

There you go. A ninja with 1000 hours on her score sheet. What more do you need?

Then we should remove backstab as well, because when you get blackjacked, if the thief is played properly you are 100% dead even without a study.

Then we should remove backstab as well' date=' because when you get blackjacked, if the thief is played properly you are 100% dead even without a study.[/quote']

Oh, there is another one who plays an assassinate ninja

The comparison of assassinate with backstab is quite ridiculous and I don't even consider commenting on it.

And we've talking about this with you many times, haven't we?

No I don't play an assassinate ninja but I will tell you one thing, if you got your *** assassinated then you have done something wrong.Backstab is even better than assassinate because it is almost one hit kill without study or anything.

No I don't play an assassinate ninja

but I will tell you one thing, if you got your *** assassinated then you have done something wrong.

Indeed, I didn't log off in time

Backstab is even better than assassinate because it is almost one hit kill without study or anything.

Now, I will tell you this, if you get one hit killed by a backstab then YOU are doing something wrong.

And you can't really compare a skill that does damage to a skill that KILLS, without dealing damage. Why? Because you can cut damage, by half (sanctuary), by quarter (protection and other means), by tenth and so on. You CAN NOT counter assassinate though. Even classes who have counter and are awake can not do it.

Ninjas are very vulnerable class, vulnerable to almost everyother class, not to mention ferals have HUGE vulnerability.And I will tell you this, if you got assassinated then you probably have never played a ninja.There are a lot of ways to stop the study.

I mean... basically you can keep an assassination ninja in your back pocket to just screw that vendetta'd cabal person who just pantsed you in public...

I will pants you (not you KRins, the ninja ;-) ) in front of the public in Central Square - freezing you if necessary and continue with you linkdead or not - if I catch anyone doing that.

I already got a line on a ninja who was doing this - if they ever log in again I will nab them. I'm actually looking forward to it....

If you want to play a ninja - fine. If you want to be a douche bag perhaps try WoW.

Lytholm.

I will pants you (not you KRins' date=' the ninja ;-) ) in [i']front of the public in Central Square - freezing you if necessary and continue with you linkdead or not - if I catch anyone doing that.

I already got a line on a ninja who was doing this - if they ever log in again I will nab them. I'm actually looking forward to it....

If you want to play a ninja - fine. If you want to be a douche bag perhaps try WoW.

Lytholm.

Would this really have been a problem if not for 'assassinate'? What if it was a DK, a Sader, or a Warrior (cases in which I have unshelved chars). Imm intervention in these cases should tell us that something is wrong.

I was more referring to the whole you die, log out, and log on your studied up ninja five seconds later. If legitly dust off a character to bring back, do your thing. If you are keeping an ace up your sleeve...well, everyone knows how they dealt with cheaters in the old west...

f0xx, you need to get out of the tool shed.

And my final thoughts on this topic (which I maintain has been stupidly rehashed FAR too many times, with little thought or care for the actual concept of PK balance) are summed up in a quote by Malchaeius:

I honestly do not believe removing assassinate will bring a comfort to sitting in any square for an extended period without an Immortal present guaranteeing safety. Remove assassinate and people will fear being blackjacked and having their items stolen or pried. Remove that, and people will fear not having sanctuary ready for an incoming attacker. It comes down to trust. No one trusts each other - and with reason - paranoia does keep you alive. FL is very Hobbesian in nature: bellum omnium contra omnes - the war of all against all - and this is why the only thing that has ever allowed a greater sense of peace is the presence of a Leviathan: Justice or Tribunal. Without a strong Justice or Tribunal presence, no one feels comfortable to sit within the squares. Think about the eras of Dedric, Alome, Bertrist, Shaw, Ralos, Martineius. These were characters that provided you with a greater sense of protection when you were in the cities. These are the eras where you felt somewhat comfortable sitting within the square, because no one wanted to risk being captured.

snip

Did anyone ever say anything about security in cities or something along the lines? We are simply discussing a one hit kill skill, no matter if it is in a city, in a river, in a forest, in a mountain region.

It's a nice way to divert the attention to a different subject.

Re f0xx: If you had read the changes, you'd have seen that there was a change after the complaints about Skia (and Skia himself posting on Prayer to help us balance it).

Re: "ninja gimping" There was ONE change, it was NOT to study but to assassinate. Nothing else was changed lately.

Re: second character to kill your killer: This is highly illegal no matter your second character's class as it is OOC motivated. It will result in you being talked to by an Imm if caught and it might result in anything from a slay to denial of BOTH characters. If you get killed by someone on char 1 make very sure not to attack that guy with char 2 just shortly after with no apparent reason.

Re: keeping study on logging off: We'll discuss it.

Instead of gimping ninjas more I would suggest giving them other bonuses like removing the unable to caltrap flying characters and making possible to open fight with caltraps.

I find assasinate to be insanly overpowered. I rolled a ninja once, after Skia as well, I managed to assasinate nearly anyone I wanted to, using the same drow-autosneak feature that aids drow clerics.

Avoiding combat is easy, and dancing about keeping within that huge study range is even easier.

Hell against opponents that cant lag a ninja can just dirt kick then flee, take a tic then vanish. Foxx is right, the proponents have all been recent ninja players, one of which habitually stalked others fights, studying them up, then assasinated one of the people involved.

My big beef is there is really no effective and reliable means to stop it. A BLM can predict assasinate but its not a guarantee. You can fight perfectly, maintain poison, never get strangled, yet still get dropped by an assasinate.

**The answer to survival in our game should NEVER be...quit. **

Suggested fixes, well some good ones already have come up.

1, lose study at logout, this is a gimmie imo

2, cannot assasinate an opponent that can see you

3, combat clears study, or at least sets it back

4, this one is mine : cannot assasinate an awake opponent when adrenaline is rushing. How can you be calm and strike with such pure accuracy when your blood is racing?

5, cannot assasinate someone who is in battle.

3' date=' combat clears study, or at least sets it back[/quote']

Ninjas should lose their study when they engage (or are engaged in) a combat EVEN if they have meditated on the study.

this. its BS that you can die to a ninja and then that ninja can assassinate you the moment you unghost.

After that' date=' the next time you move an area (they can't study across area's) sit in the first room and spam murder, bash, bodyslam or your favourite high damage spell.[/quote']

hard to do on any smart player and a drow ninja can flee from an enlarged giant 99.99% of the time

Instead of gimping ninjas more I would suggest giving them other bonuses like removing the unable to caltrap flying characters and making possible to open fight with caltraps.

This I agree with. I am all for giving ninjas more melee & mal power.

Re f0xx: If you had read the changes' date=' you'd have seen that there was a change[/quote']

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Some of the IMMs will come now and say that there has been a change in how assassination works now - hell that is not enough.

tThis. Its BS that you can die to a ninja and then that ninja can assassinate you the moment you unghost.

This is another bugger of mine. Never happened to me, but I've seen ninjas study people while they are ghosts and then assassinating them immedietely after they unghost.

yeah definatly spruce up their melee and mal powers

assasinate however is just totally lame.

I just watched a ninja login and three knights logout, because its all they can do. To fight is to be studied and one shot killed followed by a merciless go to hell full loot.

When people say, "if you've been assassinated, then you did something wrong," I just really don't get it. If this means that I did something wrong by fighting the ninja and not running away, then I think that's absolutely ridiculous. The answer to dealing with a player (assuming roughly comparable gear) should never be to avoid them.

I've tried the tactic of zone-hopping and keeping the ninja in combat, and they haven't seemed to help. In fact, there was one instance when after a bit of fighting and zone-hopping, I engaged the ninja only to have them flee, return, and assassinate me. What am I missing here? Someone please enlighten me.