~Berzerkers~

I know this was recently posted about, but it all seemed to peter out with no real decisive word on the matter. Some recent annoying experiences have prompted me to write some more on the subject. I'll write in as clear a way as I can.

Melee Power

What everyone thinks: Berzerkers are the undisputed kings of melee. They can do more damage than any other melee class, with the side effect that they also suffer more damage. They can rage and tear to shreds anything in their way.

What really happens: Berzerkers are not only NOT the kings of melee, they are at least three or four places down the ladder. While they might ON PAPER have the potential to do more damage OCCASIONALLY than other melee classes, the reality is that warriors, rangers and blademasters will hit a berzerker far more than a berzerker will ever hit them. This means you might occasionally toss out a MANGLE through sanc, but they will have hit you with five, six or seven MUTILATES. This is due to warriors, rangers, and blademasters having far superior defense and not inferior offense. Dual parry, blind fighting, riposte, fourth attack, fired weapons, beasts, pugil all combine to ruin a berzerker's day. Rage is not a cure to this. You may hit harder, but it won't be often enough to bypass all these defences. Meanwhile you've lost dodge and the ability to flee.

Possible Solutions: I like Celerity's axe throwing idea, or the weapon bonus idea. They could really give this under-strength melee class a boost without making it too tough. Also, allowing them to rest or sleep while blind would be very helpful. Right now there is a bug that occurs if you are blinded by a shaman or cleric that makes you stay panicked for the 7-8 hour duration of the blind even when you cure it. This is a real pain if you're trying to regenerate a bit.

Headbutt

What everyone thinks: If you land a headbutt, that mage or cleric is as good as dead! Once they're unable to cast, you simply stand there and rage them to pieces.

What really happens: Headbutt lasts the same time as dirt kick. As soon as it hits, that mage is gone. You can't lag them unless they're stupid, and they can just dance around in any area waiting for the effects to wear off. Most areas are big enough for a mage to comfortably avoid you for the remainder of the hour. This is all if you're lucky enough to even land it, which is a feat in itself.

Possible Solutions: Once again borrowing from Celerity the idea that maybe a successful headbutt could also confuse like thunder clap for the same length of time. That would at least make it possible for the berzerker to chase. Also, allowing them to open with headbutt could also help by adding the element of surprise.

Haymaker

What everyone thinks: If you land haymaker, sanc is gone, and so is your enemy. Toss this bad boy out and your opponent will soon be wishing they never came out of their guild.

What really happens: People know you have haymaker, they are sitting there waiting for you to try. Just like people know invokers have dispel magic. As soon as it lands, they're out of there and have re-sanced before your lag has worn off. Also, unless you take Path of Anger, haymaker is easily nullified by a simple shield. Even classes without the shield block skill can nullify it. Even if they don't have a shield, haymaker still has to try and bypass protective shield.

Possible Solutions: Make it so that you need to have the shield block skill to use a shield to deflect a haymaker. Otherwise, how are you meant to maneuvre a heavy-arse shield to deflect a vicious, precision blow? Allow zerks to open combat with haymaker, for the same reasons as headbutt. Make it so that it doesn't have to check shields AND protective shields. Just shields, so at least the berzerker has a chance to cleave it.

The Cleaves

What everyone thinks: Get an axe or polearm happening, and your enemy will soon be weaponless. Then all you have to do is stand there and chop them into sashimi.

What really happens: It's not difficult to get burnproof weapons these days. Any socketable weapon can be equipped with a non-rare socket to achieve this. In addition to this, any caballed character can burnproof any weapon at all. Berzerkers do not know if their failed cleave is merely because they failed, or because their enemies weapon is burnproof. Even if your enemy's weapon IS burnproof, you have to be wearing a heavy weapon if you want a chance. Most heavy weapons are axes or polearms, and these are not ideal to use in every situation in which you may want to cleave.

Possible Solutions: At the very least, it would be really helpful to get a separate message if the weapon you attempted to cleave was un-cleavable, just like if you try to disarm a cursed weapon. This would at least get rid of a lot of uncertainty and annoyance with the skill. Maybe make the success of cleave more dependent on the zerk's skill at cleaving, rather than the weight of the weapon? I'm not too sure about this one.

WHAT I DON'T WANT**:** I don't want ALL of these changes added, then berzerkers would just be silly. I just think they're all worth considering, and maybe in the future one or two of them could be implemented.

Anyway, please let me know what you think. If you have a contrary opinion, please state why you don't agree.

I agree with EVERYTHING in here. Berserkers suck in their current form and that class needs something changed to make it at least enjoyable.

I would also suggest to get rid of autorage... thats just rediculois. Or at least make it dependable on rage path or something... it is just stupid to autorage while you are fighting a strong mob trying to REEQUIP.

The whole suggestions is also far from enough, but it IS a good start.

I have a level 50 berserker right now.. I was suited alot better than Brasar and got my but kicked over and over.

In my oppinion berserkers are fine as they are,you got your *** kicked because you fought a warrior.I got my arse kicked with a vampire and crusader due to a warrior,what does this means that they are underpowered?No.There wasn't any change for a berserkers since I am playing here,and with my last magi that fought berserker I got killed in two rounds.Haymaker is far better than dispel magic opening fight with him is just redicilous.He is not affected by saves or anything.You have a bad timing landing haymaker that is the problem.

Yeah right, haymaker is sooo much better than dispel. Any class in the game can stop it with a shield, even classes that don't have shield block.

Yeah, that's way better than dispel.

Yeah that's the way it should be because of balance issues.After everyone can get saves agains dispel magic why should zerserks get unstoppable dispel?

A lot of the berserker posts begin by stating that berserkers should be the strongest melee character in the game. I disagree. The most efficient melee vs. melee character should be a warrior. I might put blademaster second and ranger or berserker third.

A warrior is calculating and very skilled, he knows his stuff in battle. A berserker is some guy that's really mad and swinging hard. I think we have that represented fairly well.

Now, the best melee class vs. casters/communers should be berserker, hands down. I think if the class needs to be beefed up, it should be in that matchup, without making them stronger against warriors.

Keeping that in mind, I can see headbutt adding the thunderclap effect. The mage will be too messed up to recall his spells, and will be groggy and confused when trying to run. The warrior, on the other hand, will grunt, but keep fighting on instinct rather than thought and concentration. If he does decide to flee, then he will be hampered by his spinning head.

That berserker is one angry dude, and if his foe turns to run, he would probably try some sort of backcutter. I could see backcutter when wielding his expert weapon, or maybe any weapon in which he has 100% proficiency. I like the throw idea, too. Maybe instead of backcutter, he gets a backcutter throw if he has a throwing axe in his inventory. Double throw if he carries two of them. Sweet lowbie weapon becomes sweet 50 weapon

And finally, fired weapons should not be usable in combat :eek:

I don't think berzerkers should trump warriors or rangers as melee fighters, I was just saying that it is a common misconception that berzerkers are the most damaging melee class in the game, and this is often used as a reason why they don't need to be looked at.

I was just trying to point out that this assumption is often incorrect, and I used a bunch of warrior/ranger skills as examples of why.

I agree that berzerkers should be strong against casters and communers, and I'd like it to be a bit more comparable to the warrior/berzerker match up.

This is why I especially like the ideas of throwing axes and headbutt causing the thunder clap effect. It would give berzerkers a slight edge against communers without making them overly brutal. And as you said, in the warrior/zerk matchup, the headbutt wouldn't be that devastating anyway.

Imagine a minotaur zerker with thunderclap effect headbutt?I will keep messing every single room and he will keep charging at my ***.No it won't be brutal indeed.Berserkers are fine as they are.They are just not for everyone.I remember many zerskers that kick *** and many that can be outdamaged by a cleric,this proves that they require very good timing and preparation.Timing when to shieldcleave/weaponcleave and timing when to use haymaker.

Play a berserker and you will see that what you just said is not possible, Nomak.

I like some of the ideas.

No.There wasn't any change for a berserkers since I am playing here' date='and with my last magi that fought berserker I got killed in two rounds.[/quote']

So because you died in 2 rounds means that the class is perfectly balanced? Doubtful.

The fact that there haven't been any changes to berserkers since you started is the exact reason that they NEED something. Warriors have had fired weapons added. Rangers have been revamped. Blademasters have been created. Berserkers are still the same class they were in 1.0, and that class and its abilities are outdated in today's FL environment.

There are lot of things to consider.

CLEAVING:

If you are at pinnacle and are worth your salt in life - you will have none cleavable weapons and shields.Its not hard. I can think of two sockets easily gained that will do this. I can also think of approx. another 30 weapon combinations that will be uncleavable.

This will make a berserkers life incredibly hard as when raged they loose all defences and not being able to destroy those weapons becomes a critical point.. They have no defences, no way of making their opponents defences less, or to stop their offensive output which will NOW INCREASE because they cannot use all their defensive abilities.

I would suggest something needs to be done to improve their offensive capabilities - atleast in tackling people and taking them down.

Nomak is 100% right, in the time he has played here berserkers havent been changed. - This is a bit sad, we have had new classes introduced (BLAM), a couple of others jacked up (RANGER, MONK) and yet Zerks remain perhaps now on an uneven keel.

I dont know about you but in the last six or so years, when zerks used to dominate - ive gotten better at the whole pk thing

HAYMAKER:

**Simple solution: ** Make haymaker dependant on saves.

For a start they can be blocked with a shield by anyone, even if you dont have shield block (can any one say ARE YOU KIDDING ME?)

This is a skill that is the maker and breaker of many fights, much like the cleaves. With it negated SO easily it makes two of the paths so much less appealing.

There has to be a compromise I think for zerks to come out into a formidable pk class.

Personally at this point when I fight I zerk I think of one thing: Just use long enough sanction so that he can bodyslam HIMSELF to death. I might be lagged but I know 100% I will kill the player. Unless he runs away and manages to escape. I know I will out melee him if I can keep sanc up. That simple.

HEDBUTT:

Give them thunderclap effect? Why the hell not, sounds like a VERY VERY appropriate idea. ATM they are really lacking something that gives them that OOMF.

Does the idea of him being able to charge you over and over while you run in circles scare you? GOOD.

Because at the moment zerks scare NO-ONE. When I think of a zerk I think everyone should be thinking "AH ****. HE COMES THE PAIN. I HAVE TO BE SMART IF I WANT TO WIN." and not thinking "PFFT, I'LL JUST OUTMELEE THE SOB."

I know, Ive fought them, I think that

BACK CUTTER - THROW:

It would need balancing but DEFINATELY like the idea.

You run from a titan of RAGE expect to have him swipe at your exposed back. Its that simple. Think about it. In battle would any reasonable berserker take a shot at a fleeing opponent? BLOODY BET YOUR ARSE HE WOULD.

An autothrow/backcutter would work for zerks. I mean. Atm you can just blind, flee, sleep. And they are screwed with panic. Make them pay for that sleep with flesh and blood.

It would need to be toned according to other changes/dependant on other changes. I dont want to see zerks hitting ==D== for damage on a throw/backcutter

In the end we must consider this: The days of KENTRY are LONG over. Whilst in these conditions he may be formidable, but nothing many of the pbase would quake in their boots about. Zerks need something to give them the momentum they need so that they have the CHANCE of winning more then 40% of their PK's.

Disclaimer: I have no interest in playing a Zerk, these are observations from someone who has seen many, faught many and beaten a hell of a lot more then lost to when fighting Zerks. I am not looking to boost my own characters power with outlandish ideas. The crux of the matter is Zerks need an edge. Something they dont currently have.

Maybe put it this way, consider you were playing ANY CLASS, rate your most feared enemies.. I assure you zerks will be NOWHERE near the top eight. And within the top ten would have to be a beautifully played zerk in itself.

Zerkers got headbutt, haymaker, and staff. A huge upgrade. That was before monks, and blademasters.

This was AFTER Kentry.

CLEAVING:

I like the cleave idea to show them message if the weapon cannot be cleaved or etc...

HAYMAKER:

Haymaker dependant on saves is a VERY good idea.

BACK CUTTER - THROW:

Here is where I don't agree.It is the same like giving the invoker such a spell that when you flee they cast a random spell on you."How do you expect a titan not to throw something on you" is not a reason enough.It is the same like "How do you expect a master spellcaster not to cast a random spell on you when you flee".I just don't get the logic and I think they will become too overpowered.Giving berskers backcutter will affect crusaders as well.This is just my point of view

Zerkers got headbutt, haymaker, and staff. A huge upgrade. That was before monks, and blademasters.

This was AFTER Kentry.

Yup this is true.

However we have to consider the ever accelerating ability of the playerbase these days. The players today are much much better as in 1.0...

The crux of the matter is Zerks dont compete at 50 level.

They just dont. Simple as that.

Here is where I don't agree.It is the same like giving the invoker such a spell that when you flee they cast a random spell on you."How do you expect a titan not to throw something on you" is not a reason enough.It is the same like "How do you expect a master spellcaster not to cast a random spell on you when you flee".I just don't get the logic and I think they will become too overpowered.Giving berskers backcutter will affect crusaders as well.This is just my point of view.

Maybe not the best option yes, but ideas are always good.

There is little doubt that zerks need 'something'.

I ALSO think it would be neat to give them some sort of 'death throes', where right before they die they make one final, desparate act of crazy damage to take their opponent down with them.

It suits a raging titan concept, and at least it overcome the 'simply keep sanc up until they bodyslame themself to death' concept. they may kill themselves, but they will probably give off enough damage to take you with them.

In addition to that and the other ideas mentioned, I think that rage should give them more attacks a round. Perhaps it is just me, but I REALLY think that berserkers should be the melee damage powerhouses, and they simply are not. They hit harder per individual strike, maybe. But they hit FAR less. SO maybe let rage add some sort of haste effect, or simply more attacks per round. It would make sense for someone swinging wildly for all they are worth to be swinging a LOT.

They don't hit far less guys. It's just circumstantial. Panic? Panic is GODLY. You want to sleep while you are in panic? No. Because that's the trade off. You get increased hit/dam, and a haste affect. That's where the more attacks come in. The ONLY thing to hinder zerks that has come along since Kentry's day is the addition of socketable weapons and armor, and the burnproof socket. Zerks are not underpowered, we just havn't had someone shine with one in a long time.

1.0 zerks had both headbutt and haymaker. They did not have skull crusher or path selections, but Kentry's headbutt worked just the same as one now.

And once again, Kentry was 1.0 Warmaster leader with 1.0 eq and 1.0 class balancing. To compare his situation to a modern zerk's would be like saying that just because Calandra could outmelee a warrior means that all ninjas should be able to.

Panic is bugged in the sense that if you get blinded by a cleric or shaman, the panic effect will last for the entire 7-8 hours even if you cure blindness. That is really, really annoying not to be able to sleep for that whole time if you've fled from combat and need to rest up.

And once again' date=' Kentry was 1.0 Warmaster leader with 1.0 eq and 1.0 class balancing. To compare his situation to a modern zerk's would be like saying that just because Calandra could outmelee a warrior means that all ninjas should be able to.[/quote']

You are absolutely right. What separated Kentry and Calandra? The knew what they were doing, they had the skills to back it up. Just because Calandra could outmelee warriors, doesn't mean every ninja can. Calandra could because the player knew how to take advantage of ninja skills. And furthermore, ninjas can outmelee warriors today if played right.