Higher xp-pen for ogres

Sure, they have their vuln, but they are still the best race for all classes they can be. Why shouldn't they have a higher xp-pen then?

The current situation with ogres reminds me of what sliths were like a few years back. They are arguably the best choice for every class they can choose. When it became painfully clear that was the case for the slith race, sliths got their exp penalty bumped up to 500, some of their abilities got divided up based on alignment, and they got -1 dex.

I think ogres need a bit of work. 500 exp. cost is a start, and -1 str would also be appropriate.

Haven't fought an ogre ranger in a while but the situation with slith thieves I think was a bit worse.

Yeah, it was worse. That's why the abilities got divided. My opinion on sliths at the time was that if you took the three most powerful race/class combinations in the game (a matter of opinion, I know, and I don't want to start a debate about the balance of power three or four years ago--kinda pointless) two of the three were probably slith thief and slith warrior. They needed some serious rebalancing.

I don't think ogres have that type of dominance right now. I do think that ogres are too good compared to other warriors, rangers and berserkers.

Changes may or not be considered for the ogre race. You'll have to wait and see.

I am still a HUGE fan of lowering ogre strength. No way in hell should they have equal strength to a stone giant. Or even a Storm giant.

22 Strength would be fine. They aren't giants, just big. Why should they be stronger than some and equal to other giants in strength? No way. They already get a damage bonus.

My suggestion on balancing the situation would be to do the following:

Raise ogre exp pen to 400

Drop ogre strength by 1

Lower minotaur exp pen to 300

Raise stone giant intelligence by 1 or 2 (whatever it takes to get them up to practice in 2)

Raise storm giant strength by 1

Implement more good-aligned melee weaponry (Storm giants have access to all of two decent staffs, both of which are difficult to get, and very rare)

Increase the effect of dexterity on avoiding lag attacks

Increase the effect of size on trip (smaller = trip better)

Since when did sliths had a vulnerability ?

This is one thing no one ever seemed to have thought about. What about just changing the max roll for ogres? That way they have a slightly harder time at startup, and they get less trains for hp in the end.

I don't think 20 or 30 less hp will make that much of difference.

My suggestion on balancing the situation would be to do the following:

Raise ogre exp pen to 400

Drop ogre strength by 1

Lower minotaur exp pen to 300

Raise stone giant intelligence by 1 or 2 (whatever it takes to get them up to practice in 2)

Raise storm giant strength by 1

Implement more good-aligned melee weaponry (Storm giants have access to all of two decent staffs, both of which are difficult to get, and very rare)

Increase the effect of dexterity on avoiding lag attacks

Increase the effect of size on trip (smaller = trip better)

Amen!

I can go with that. Stone giants need some lovin. They got some nifty abilities...but you ever try to train one of those bastards? shudder

I know of 4 staffs that storm giants can use, and there's probably more out there.

L-A used to say that dualing two smoking flails against an Invoker would beat them down fairly quickly. Reason being is that Invokers only have 1 defense and they dont know how to use flails. Depending on who plays the class as well will depend on how hard or easy the battle is.

Almost - Smoking flail/1h burnproof flail. You're weapons can't be destoryed, invokers don't know flail, flail is hard to parry (invokers only defense) + dirt means almost all your attacks will land.

Ogre Berserker will have automastered fast healing and regeneration as well as an even higher base HP than other Ogre choices. To top it off Ogres tend to blow off pain where once in a great while a really huge amount of damage will turn out to come out only as a graze/scratch. And if you choose a certain path' date=' you'll do it even more now than in the past since the change.[/quote']

'Extra pain' isn't as useful for an ogre zerk as you might think. A dwarf/duergar zerk would benefit a lot more from this. Large hp = large vuln though the invoker problem is somewhat solved because zerks are geared to kill all mage classes. Necromancer and shaman issues exist for all ogres. The vs melee/some hybrids issue exists in a big way - and its bad since ogre zerks will get hurt badly vs melee's with magical weapons.

Ogre Warrior is a better choice than say a Storm or Stone warrior simply because the Ogre has better stats as well as more HP. I'd still choose Fire Warrior over an Ogre simply because they have more defense against all non-magical weapons' date=' as well as automasteries in some skills and they get a bonus use using fire weapons and to top it off their bash is VERY powerful. Only drawback is they're idiots.[/quote']

Stone > fire as you get all that but no ice vuln (fire weapons mastery isn't as good as neutral. Fire are cooler because they are evil though :-) ). Same with stone > ogre vs skilled players because you will always be facing up to the magic vuln. Stone's lack of vuln (and resistance to boot in certain cases ie battlemage) make them very tough cookies. Warriors have an easier time vs melee due to all weapon knowlege/defenses BUT the warrior vs invoker battle is far harder than say, zerk vs invoker. As an ogre, dispel;hell;hell by the time your dirt kick wears off remains a constant threat. You're saves gear is easier to attrition-destroy due to the vuln. Stones have an issue here, but its not quite as bad as the save is easier to make ie no vuln.

Ogre Ranger again has a high base HP. Werebeast might be a close second for a Ranger then Human (unless of course you're Behrens' date=' then Human is best). With the strength they have, they're more than capable to pull off a decent hit/dam, and if you know both the race and the class inside and out, you wont have a problem with various classes, and if you do, you can run off and camouflage and sleep it up and be ready to go again in far less time than your opponent.[/quote']

Same as ogre warrior for the vs invoker battles. You have a little more punch due to pets but dirt vs dispel;hell;hell still exists. Note this is one of the most basic invoker tactics, I'm sure the hardened invoker players (Myrek Umbra, Pali) have some more creative ways of disposing with ogres. You must use sanc on all pets here or 3 fireball casts will see you' If you're pets sanc wears off 2 - 3 fireball casts will see you as a gimped ogre warrior. If the invoker is sick of your pets they can dispel them and fireball them to death, run and heal and come back too.

As for fighting a Necromancer as an Ogre Ranger' date=' make sure you're flying (there used to be a stave that you could brandish that granted lvl 50 flight which I wouldn't mind being brought back even though there is that one you can buy still) and granted you still might be dispelled, go addiction and smoke herbs for sanctuary and such. It comes in very handy at some points and make sure you have lots of cure blinds in inventory before fighting them so you can run off and cure it. You might not win every PK you have as an Ogre, but no one can win them all.[/quote']

This is a class vs class scenario (ranger vs necro). Being an ogre isn't an advantage here - zombies can be chosen for magical attacks and youre vuln to all the necro's spells (some of which are quite nasty).

I would also like to point out, shamen and necromancers destroy ogres. I would take a drow/deurgar shaman vs an ogre anything any day and be confident that I would come out on top 100/100 times. Necro is a little different (ie trickier) - but again, the vuln to spells is going to make it very hard for the ogre. HP is not a defense vs maledictions.

L-A

LA have you been playing lately? I will argue all of your points when I get off work.

I'd never want to play a zerk against an invoker simply because you are much more likely to die from dispel-->autorage (even if you have anger path) than getting the kill with a lucky haymaker...same reason I wouldn't want a stone against a bmg (ogres are resis to physical too for all purposes--bmg's killing spells are all mental based)

basically, to beat a good invoker as a melee, you HAVE to play the attrition game. I don't care if you a reaver ogre ranger with 80/80 hit/dam...you won't win in straight combat. Esp. in the case of warrior and zerk, you have to deal damage, run away and outheal them and get them to over commit. Ranger can just play archery and do fine if they are patient. Invoker's worst nightmares are probably a smart thief, necro (energy drain), shaman, or dk (energy drain).

fire is far superior to stone in general use (weapon dam bonus + fire prof bonus (+ cabal choices) > prot penalty), but the stone is potentially stronger against communers of both aligns

generally speaking, warriors are better vs all classes than zerks (higher offense/defense + more adaptability). Zerks have the option of playing the 'lucky' status kill or die game against a couple of classes, but over time they will die more than kill---meaning they won't ever keep good eq meaning they are bound not to do well over any amount of time.

as for hellstreaming eq, it doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you are vuln to the spell or how much damage the spell does

I agree that shaman/necro/communer are the ogre warrior's hardest foes...non-warrior ogres will have a hard time with those same + decked giant warriors...duergar may not be the best choice though to kill an ogre. The flip side is, no warrior/zerk/ranger combo will do well against shaman/necro/communers---meaning that you will still want to play an ogre regardless.

basically, to beat a good invoker as a melee, you HAVE to play the attrition game. I don't care if you a reaver ogre ranger with 80/80 hit/dam...you won't win in straight combat.

So, so not true.

Rangers rip casters/communers, with the semi-exception of battlemages, period. Pets are vicious, vicious things.

agree with raar

If you are a reaver ogre ranger with 80/80...you will take out an invoker in straight combat in two rounds. Unless you are unsanced at the beginning of combat, you have zero chance of loosing this fight.

I'm speaking from my own experience with invokers...

pets MIGHT last one or MAYBE two rounds against an invoker and they all do physical damage (aka resistable damage)

I dunno which invokers raar and psycho have been playing recently, but pets are really not a huge deal for invokers (necro pets included--except the super travens of course )

even in a terrible case scenario, the invoker needs to run for a tick or two after killing the pets

we are assuming well-equipped and well-played on both sides of the coin

of course a ranger will tear apart people who don't prepare any consumables or do anything at all to counter them...

Even sanced pets won't last against an invoker or a battlemage. As for a cleric, all they need to do is path a pet a few times and plague will land. Then the ranger really has no choice but to release the pets (Yes, you could herb it and the cleric can repeat).

Hitroll over 50 is also affected by a reduction cap, so 80/80 is not the wow factor it might seem. I definitely would not say there is 'zero chance of loosing'. That type of hit/dam means you have almost no saves and therefore are very vulnerable to the dispel/spell/spell combination.

Have to run, so I'll continue later.