Ogre Ranger would beat Iyorvin toe to toe in damage 95% of the time. I won only because they couldn't lag me, and the 5% time was me having a cabal skill under a certain condition and me landing an 850 damage dispel/hellstream.
Higher xp-pen for ogres
Melee vs caster, there is a single, simple rule: The power of casters, for the most part, is initially high, but quickly 'cap'; the power of melees is initially low, but have the highest cap.
Rangers have a medium base power due to pets, but also an extremely high cap; in terms of total damage output against low-defense/non-melees, only (possibly) a berserker can equal them.
The higher the relative experience and power levels, the easier the ranger has it.
At the highest levels, where the ranger is fully decked and at the top of his game, with the same going for the invoker, the ranger should, for all practical purposes, clean up, easily.
In the current incarnation of the game, with people being much more equipment-knowledgeable, casters (especially invokers) have a much tougher time than they had before (with bmg being a rare exception). You will not three or four-round anyone with a caster, unless they are a newblet, or unless you're using call lightning (best spell ever). But a ranger WILL very possibly three or four round you with relative ease.
Rangers and blademasters, IMHO, are both 'anti-mages'. Blademasters are anti-mages in terms of special skills; rangers, in flat out massive waves of damage against those who have poor defenses.
Assuming the ranger is competent and sancs his pets, the only way you will manage to kill them quickly is through fireball (icestorm is slower).
Against a competent ranger with saves, fireball will perhaps have taken off 100-200 damage or so (assuming non-ogre) by the time his pets are dead. If you are not within 200 HP of death yourself by this time, and effectively unable to continue, I would be very surprised.
RE Iyorvin: It is not possible to do 850 damage, even to an unsanced ogre with zero saves 
Which ogre ranger?
I used to think that about the caps also...until I played with Sachi a bit. I used to avoid mages for that very reason---I thought lower potential.
Yes, there is a damage cap on the spells---melees CAN outdo the damage cap. However, luckily it isn't about pure base damage. Also lucky for the caster, they don't have to worry about hit/dam allowing them warrior-ish HP. Isn't about how much damage you can put out---but how much damage you WILL put out.
People really seem to ignore consumables with mages.
So, for these reasons, I say the opposite. The ill-prepared, ill-equipped invoker will have a much harder time against an ill-prepared, ill-equipped ogre ranger.
Now, I don't think I'll ever be able to play melees very much anymore...because I think they have the far lower potential now
RE Celerity:Nexus T with mastered chaos blades.
I used to think that about the caps also...until I played with Sachi a bit. I used to avoid mages for that very reason---I thought lower potential.
Yes, there is a damage cap on the spells---melees CAN outdo the damage cap. However, luckily it isn't about pure base damage. Also lucky for the caster, they don't have to worry about hit/dam allowing them warrior-ish HP. Isn't about how much damage you can put out---but how much damage you WILL put out.
People really seem to ignore consumables with mages.
So, for these reasons, I say the opposite. The ill-prepared, ill-equipped invoker will have a much harder time against an ill-prepared, ill-equipped ogre ranger.
Now, I don't think I'll ever be able to play melees very much anymore...because I think they have the far lower potential now
Again, I have to disagree. It IS about the pure base damage, for the simple reason that invokers cannot block for beans. If you up the pure base damage, you up the damage done. For invokers, you cannot up your base damage at all; as equipment gets better and better, your spells are less and less effective.
Most melees have around 900-1000 hp. Assuming they are properly saved, it is all but impossible to do more than 100 hp worth of damage a round with an invoker (with, once more, the caveat of call lightning): in essence, around 11% of their total hp. Even assuming they only save against every other spell, that's, what, 6 rounds to kill them flat out? And that's assuming they have pretty crappy afflictive saves. Dispel/hellstream, btw, is extremely overrated against people with saves; even assuming you land a dispel every other round (very rare), if you had just hellstreamed both rounds, the damage you would have done would have been the same. It's a myth that isn't borne out by mathematical calculation, and which rests solely on the flashy damages that it tosses out.
A fully prepared ranger will not need that many rounds to take out an invoker; once again, 4 rounds or so, tops. The very first round will take out approximately 300 or so hp (3-4 hits for caps damage, plus pets and the autoassist); you can expect about 200 a round lost after that. By the third around, 700'ish damage will have been done, and by the fourth, around 900. Unless you are dressing solely for maximum HP/AC, effectively, that's all the damage that is needed.
Increase the effect of size on trip (smaller = trip better)
Just because your smaller than me doesn't mean I should fall harder... That makes 0 sense. Period.
Celerity: I was Reikon. Undead Invoker Sydnicate Trusted. I had -430 ac. A staff, fully charged. I used every consumable I could find. Sometimes I even had parry at 102%. Reikon had ~1000 HP.
Corinkorth: Beastmaster. He and his pets would kill me in 4 rounds, at most. AT most. Usually 2. Even when he would come into the same room and I had a firestorm waiting.
Fireball did MANGLES at most to his pets through sanc.
Haha, Raar beat me. Thats close. Corinkorth did around 450 hp damage with autoassist, and 200-270 hp a round after that... It was ridiculous.
I also wore a sphere of annihilation.
Corinkorth is tracker.
And Melinda, I'd love to hear what staffs you're talking about.
Note that I said decent. Meaning they are already, or can be made nodisarm.
I can think of three, two of which are super rare. Pincer, Clock and Retribution.
Also, the size to trip thing, is already in effect. But yes, a greater effect would make the smaller warrior classes more viable options.
Also' date=' the size to trip thing, is already in effect. But yes, a greater effect would make the smaller warrior classes more viable options.[/quote']
Although in retrospect, it would give ogres an advantage over giants.
How do you figure?
Ogres are smaller than giants. They can already triplock them. To increase the effect of size on trip would be to increase that advantage.
Just because your smaller than me doesn't mean I should fall harder... That makes 0 sense. Period.
Celerity: I was Reikon. Undead Invoker Sydnicate Trusted. I had -430 ac. A staff, fully charged. I used every consumable I could find. Sometimes I even had parry at 102%. Reikon had ~1000 HP.
Corinkorth: Beastmaster. He and his pets would kill me in 4 rounds, at most. AT most. Usually 2. Even when he would come into the same room and I had a firestorm waiting.
Fireball did MANGLES at most to his pets through sanc.
Haha, Raar beat me. Thats close. Corinkorth did around 450 hp damage with autoassist, and 200-270 hp a round after that... It was ridiculous.
I also wore a sphere of annihilation.
Right, Corinkorth had the guard captain. That ups things considerably; I was talking primarily about 'base' rangers.
Ogres are not smaller than giants.
Not sure where you are getting the numbers from, but I don't think rangers will pop off 200-300 damage every round unless you have some sort of tribunal pet, haste, or an easy vuln (reikon).
Also, I don't know what invoker would only do 100 damage a round (against saves/sanc/prot) with mana charge...you do more than 100 damage a round to even duergar/dwarf communers...if you are an ogre/giant (which they must be assuming that damage), they will be dispelled within a couple of casts, if not the first one...
I'll write more later..I'm pulled away! ahhhhhh
Wasn't Sachi a sigil? Cause that throws your tests out the window Celerity.
Ogres are not smaller than giants.
Then I stand by my suggestion in its entirety.
Not sure where you are getting the numbers from, but I don't think rangers will pop off 200-300 damage every round unless you have some sort of tribunal pet, haste, or an easy vuln (reikon).
Also, I don't know what invoker would only do 100 damage a round (against saves/sanc/prot) with mana charge...you do more than 100 damage a round to even duergar/dwarf communers...if you are an ogre/giant (which they must be assuming that damage), they will be dispelled within a couple of casts, if not the first one...
I'll write more later..I'm pulled away! ahhhhhh
They will. Believe it, they will. 200-300 is a conservative estimate, especially for the first, autoassist round. Rangers have dual wield and third attack; with weapons like whips, they will land 3-4 hits per round which, if properly equipped, will all be caps or near-caps damage. Add on the 2-3 pets hitting, and it will easily be pushed to 300. 200-300 is an extremely conservative estimate, to be honest; I see that being done regularly to shamans (such as Covus), or battlemages, all with AC above -400, and better defenses than invokers.
Hellstream hits for around 400 damage, unsaved, unsanced: annihilate/eradicate.
Sanctuary cuts that to 200.
Saves cuts that to 100.
Protection cuts that down even further.
Even assuming they save only every other spell, that means every two rounds, they take only 300 damage. Icestorm will give you a slightly higher damage output.
Dispel/hellstream is overrated, simply because even if it takes only 3 attempts per dispel (which is not going to be easy at good saves), you come out even, even assuming you got in a hellstream before they fled, because the time you spent casting dispels = time you could have spent casting an extra hellstream; two sanced hellstreams=1 unsanced hellstream.
Not sure where you are getting the numbers from, but I don't think rangers will pop off 200-300 damage every round unless you have some sort of tribunal pet, haste, or an easy vuln (reikon).
Corinkorth never really used a vuln weapon against me. Most of the time it was the arctron and another weapon, he would hope to "lag" me with his weapon so I wouldn't be able to flee.
His pets were doing physical damage, obviously. I think I have a short log if you want to see. (Yes I used mana shield when he used the arctron)
Not sure where you are getting the numbers from' date=' but I don't think rangers will pop off 200-300 damage every round unless you have some sort of tribunal pet, haste, or an easy vuln (reikon).[/quote']
Corinkorth never really used a vuln weapon against me. Most of the time it was the arctron and another weapon, he would hope to "lag" me with his weapon so I wouldn't be able to flee.
His pets were doing physical damage, obviously. I think I have a short log if you want to see. (Yes I used mana shield when he used the arctron)
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You're silly.
They will. Believe it, they will. 200-300 is a conservative estimate, especially for the first, autoassist round. Rangers have dual wield and third attack; with weapons like whips, they will land 3-4 hits per round which, if properly equipped, will all be caps or near-caps damage. Add on the 2-3 pets hitting, and it will easily be pushed to 300. 200-300 is an extremely conservative estimate, to be honest; I see that being done regularly to shamans (such as Covus), or battlemages, all with AC above -400, and better defenses than invokers.
Hellstream hits for around 400 damage, unsaved, unsanced: annihilate/eradicate.
Sanctuary cuts that to 200.
Saves cuts that to 100.
Protection cuts that down even further.
Even assuming they save only every other spell, that means every two rounds, they take only 300 damage. Icestorm will give you a slightly higher damage output.
Dispel/hellstream is overrated, simply because even if it takes only 3 attempts per dispel (which is not going to be easy at good saves), you come out even, even assuming you got in a hellstream before they fled, because the time you spent casting dispels = time you could have spent casting an extra hellstream; two sanced hellstreams=1 unsanced hellstream.
205 - 375 dmg depending on a 3 dice roll per cast of hell stream.
saves cut that in half. (checked before sanction)
sanction cuts that in half.
then protection quarters the remainder.
I've had the best luck with the watery spell. Forget what its called. Requires you to create a spring first.