Illithid Shock

I'd like to bring this up again with some revisions:

To discourage players from relying on shock to continue offensive PK, and for it to only be used in emergencies as intended, I suggest that shock causes zombies/pets to disappear, like a loss in a challenge.

I feel that shock is designed to give illithids a little extra chance to run away after hitting zero hps. However, I have seen illithids waiting to enter shock before running away. “Once I hit zero hp that is my cue to go leave.” I also see some illithids pking (through melee) with zombies after hitting shock. This is not the purpose of shock. The purpose of shock is to run away when you mess up and should have normally died (any other race would have). This change would only affect post-shock offense power. It may even make them slightly MORE defensive because they would be running instead of gathering zombies.

I feel this change is necessary because shock, as it stands now, is something that is counted on to save your life/extra hp…it is not necessarily –avoided-. If zombies leave at shock state, the illithid will still have the escape perk, but at significant cost for messing up.

The idea IS to have a nasty side effect to shock. Something to be avoided. Yes, it can spell doom for a necromancer. Zero hps can do that. The illithid would now be forced to flee the battle once entering shock.

As for psis, which do not have the straight melee power of necros, shock causes fleeing as it is.

Illithids have awesome stats, TONS of hp/mana, innate parry, telepath, easy food, lightning AND mental resistance, leech, cone of force, and shock. They have a fairly hard to hit light vuln. This is more than most quest races. This is certainly more than the other base necro races. This change will definitely not “gimp” them.

agreed.

i'd like to bring up again that this idea is bad and wrong. and while you've been playing here since 1292 and the magna carta and etc etc, this idea is still bad and wrong. anyone who'd like to see the reasons why, there is a multi-page thread where celerity wanted real bad to nerf shock. and it was appropriately not implemented. nothing has changed. i dont know what your fixation on illithids and weakening them is, but i sincerely hope that your unexplainable crusade runs out of steam for the last time, before it has the chance to put another knife into one of the most interesting races in the game.

dont know if it's about some kind of desire to get a very bad idea implemented primarily because you want to show how influential you are, but i think that's what it might be. your recent ego flexing about how you influence things here is testimony.

I dont see how it would gimp them. Else than for those who abuses shock, that is.

You posted a lot (or exclusively for that matter) about how -I- am bad, but what about the idea? Why exactly is this a "bad and wrong" idea? How does it nerf shock?

Illithids shock is primarily a class that has no weapons best defense. Sure, they are innate at parry. But if you have any chasing skills whatsoever... a drained caster really won't do much to you anyways. More often than not... I've seen necromancers over extend themselves, due to relying on shock, and are killed whereas they would have escaped if they left afore hand.

If people hadn't embarked on 'unexplainable crusades' many things that unbalanced the game would still be in, like bugs with abduct, chain lightning, divine intervention, and many other skills that people had issues with.

Celerity has been at least part of a few beneficial changes in just the last few weeks, such as berzerkers and age.

If you don't like the idea, just say so, but don't go on some abuse trip and risk getting a possibly constructive thread locked.

I agree with Nekky. Even if there are valid ways it is overpowered, attacking Celerity is no way to point them out.

and a lot of crusades have made the game what it is today in a different, less savory way. i mean the watering down of a lot of classes and races. many of which could have survived, and instead there is a macro-evolution to both classes and races getting homogenized gradually into a mass of weak ineffective abilities. this crusade is a perfect case in point. like i said to gain any sense of foreknowledge of this case, there is a multi-page thread in this section about illithid shock. it was over the last summer.

Yes Celerity continues to make valid points and arguments, some I agree with others less so, but she shouldnt be knocked for questioning elements of the game. She takes the time to post a topic with suggestions on improving/balancing. On this topic I can say she does have a point, if you go into shock you should be running not trying to use it as a handy bonus hit point boost, that said having played an illithid necro, when you go into shock theres not a whole lot you can do, but I never had the joy of 3 travens.

You are still drained for 11-12 hours (if I remember correctly), which makes you very vulnerable to attacks.

http://www.forum.forsakenlands.org/showthread.php?t=4976

how about you dont lose the zombies, but they wont follow you while under shock. Then you cant fight on in the shock, but you dont lose the zombies either.

You are still drained for 11-12 hours (if I remember correctly)' date=' which makes you very vulnerable to attacks.[/quote']

It does make you vulnerable. But the point is, that I have seen, from first-hand experience fighting necromancers, that Illithid shock by many is just used as a HP buffer. Draining and whatever is harmful, but it's not a factor at all when they're in combat, shock kicks in, and they can remain in combat to beat down on you. This way, you're playing a little more conservative - getting close to low HP?

"I better run, don't want to lose my zombies - OH CRAP he caught up with me and hit me...damn..lost my zombies, but at least I didn't die and lose all my phat lewt like I would have done if I was any other necro class."

^ That is a big bonus in itself. You are practically given the chance to CHEAT death at the loss of zombies.

I agreed wholeheartedly with the idea when Celerity first proposed it and I still do. I would try and explain my case a bit better but I am absolutely awful at expressing my ideas and trying to get across what I mean in my head, as you have all probably seen in many previous posts.

Dey

Beining drained from shock after fighting through a long fight will likely prove to give you 0 mana and low hp (even with maxed mana before shock, I'd say roughly 400), probably mediocre moves left.

Likely you can continue fighting, sure. But if you try and run from the player after getting shocked and they are any good at tracking, they can likely get to you when you get moves drained from the lack of regen. Also, if they decide to use a orb of recall to recall all the pets and run from there, likely the person will know where you recalled and can track around the near vicinity of the area and finish you.

Further, if you have them cornered near their word point, you can sleep off some dmg to you and keep reengaing them while they are hurting

and that is the problem. you shouldnt be able to continue fighting. run should be the only choice. dont forget, without shock you would have been DEAD. almost dead and quite disabled is much better than being dead.

I don't think thats a problem. You can fight but if you fight you are likely going to die or word at 10 hp with a gain of 2 hp per tick while sleeping.

I personally think its fine the way it is and I've played a necro savant that did well as well as fought against many ill necros. As I said, I've never seen a need to change it in any event, though it has upset me plenty when I see shock go through then lose them. Most necro fights I've been in has shown a distinct victor of necro or opponent with the shock only tellin em to get out or die.

The only time I havent seen this was versus a blademaster where deathweaver makes you wonder if you can survive 1 more round.

Nobody is saying that people can't kill illithids or that illithids are particularly strong/weak with zero mana and drained.

I'm sure some illithids will die and others will get away while in shock...that isn't the issue here at all.

The issue that I'm addressing is that illithids can use shock as a way to keep ATTACKING. The defensive aspect of illithids wouldn't change at all with this change (outside of losing the offensive melee power).

Moreover, shock isn't being actively avoided now. Sure they don't WANT shock, but many skilled players will realize that they CAN continue the PK after they hit shock.

If this change was implemented, illithid shock would become a pure escape mechanism, used only in the worst (not calculated risk) situations, that results in the survival of illithid (con and eq) but with -major- drawbacks (loss of zombies).

Remember that shock is effectively a one time get-out-of-death-free card that no other race has, and this change would in no way be giving illithids a vuln or even "toning them down" much.

An alternative idea is to have the illithid do a system shock saves check. Like rage, when the illithid hits zero hp, they make a system shock roll. If the illithid fails the system shock save, they die...if they pass it, they enter into normal illithid shock. I'm fairly sure that would be less popular than my first idea with some of you. I would want BOTH ideas incorporated.

This might even be incorporated into all necromancers, which would not only lessen the gap between the other races and illithid, but gives more use to the "hardier/high con" necro races.

yeah, because illithids arent like squishy pinatas anyways?

I have played my fair share of illithid / necros, its my favorite race/class combo...and to be truthful it seems you are really talking from the perspective of someone who has not really played the race very much.

melee combat is the bane of an illithid, and an illithid that waits to shock before running is not very likely to escape unless they are quite skilled at escaping. Being drained leaves them with such a rapid move drain that its amazing you get two zones before your stuck standing with your thumb in your butt.

Yes, a necromancer can stand in combat behind his zombies after shock. And yes it is a tool of the race that is very useful. But any illithid that does so when their opponent is anything but awful condition is going to get pasted.

The longer an illithid remains the more chance it has of being pasted or caugfht with no moves while retreating.

Loss of zombies? please. your insane, this would mean that, for example, in cabal warfare an ill/necro might as well log out when it goes into shock...as the loss of its zombies means it cant kill squat or offset melee attacks with rescue/flee tactics. And while its raising zombies dealing with the day long (or three day long) timer on strength damned the enemy will rip either the illithid or its altar apart.

no, personally...shock is good the way it is. It gives a nigh defensless melee type the ability to absorb a little more damage and shock helps in allowing a necromancer to AVOID what you are SUGGESTING. As is, if somehting hard hits very fast the illithid has a little more time to withdraw than if it is stun/dead it loses all its zombies which constitutes all its defensive and offensive powers.

And hey, if an illithid goes into shock...and chooses to use those last few ingots of health to recite scrolls of decapitation at you..then thats their choice. They risk death by doing so.

Agreed.