Another misconception about balance that irks me is some vets (most of the time vets anyway) think something is imbalanced bc they have an uphill battle against one person in the game. Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about them being at a few scratches and you dead scenarios, I mean long winded battles where they just have an advantage over you and you need to apply tactics to overcome it.
You're not meant to roll over 100% of the pbase without any opposition. That'd be boring too.
5 hours ago, f0xx said:
So you think a newly created character should be as tough as 1-2 year old one? Where's the incentive to longevity then? What makes people want stick to their characters instead of deleting and roling the next FOTM combo, and who are going to be those characters that are going to drive those long term global RP changes that make FL the game we all love?
I disagree.
A character that has just hit 50, no matter how decked, should never be able to be as strong as a long term character. Edges, cabal ranks and skills, RP points do just these.
You are right, facing an established characters with a newly rolled one is tough. You should be glad you even have the chance to do so. In real life sports, you first have to prove yourself for years just to have ONE shot at the top dog.
People want everything on a silver platter, NOW. But this is not a realistic option.
I can't even believe that someone as skilled as yourself would make such an absurd claim.
[edit] On another note, blaming your PK shortcomings on edges alone is silly. You're bigger than that.
I guess I'm the new Wade? My comments are not suggesting the macro-PK spectrum of established characters shouldn't have an easier time with new level 50's in PK. It's also not suggesting I'm having PK short-comings. Stacking edges is a problem for the following reasons:
Some people have a ton of time to write all the RP-point things (aka Power gamers, or the types that like to play Heralds). Some, like myself, do not. And there is no in-between other than skill. Unlimited stacking edges can make a powerful synergy combo unkillable except maybe in a gang ( the only way I ever saw Kotrag die btw). **If not a single edge at a time, then there should be a cap, like 3 edges simultaneously. ** This isn't personal to me, I think it needs to be investigated, just like everyone else's suggestions. Just because you, @Foxx, like edges and have time to write and do all that stuff...great! You're entitled to defend your position.
My last serious character was fairly successful and didn't have a single edge. So again, this isn't personal. It's just something I think about when I haven't played in a while and think about coming back to roll something PK-oriented. I'm like "oh yeah, I can't just hope to compete on a casual basis. If I want to be seriously competitive, I have to spend another 10-20 hours writing stuff." And it's a huge turn off, when time is a premium. I know others have echoed a similar sentiment so I'm not alone.
So, have any other assumptions you'd like to air?
Which edges stacking do you think to be a problem? Most edges will not help you at all in a pk situation vs most ppl.
e.g. carry more, put more in bags, slight %idsh more damage vs one certain race (useless against everybody else)
Some can even be a disadvantage like having slightly more ac when fighting an invoker. (That is why toggleable edges may not be a good thing.)
58 minutes ago, Mmm Beer said:
I guess I'm the new Wade? My comments are not suggesting the macro-PK spectrum of established characters shouldn't have an easier time with new level 50's in PK. It's also not suggesting I'm having PK short-comings. Stacking edges is a problem for the following reasons:
Some people have a ton of time to write all the RP-point things (aka Power gamers, or the types that like to play Heralds). Some, like myself, do not. And there is no in-between other than skill. Unlimited stacking edges can make a powerful synergy combo unkillable except maybe in a gang ( the only way I ever saw Kotrag die btw). **If not a single edge at a time, then there should be a cap, like 3 edges simultaneously. ** This isn't personal to me, I think it needs to be investigated, just like everyone else's suggestions. Just because you, @Foxx, like edges and have time to write and do all that stuff...great! You're entitled to defend your position.
My last serious character was fairly successful and didn't have a single edge. So again, this isn't personal. It's just something I think about when I haven't played in a while and think about coming back to roll something PK-oriented. I'm like "oh yeah, I can't just hope to compete on a casual basis. If I want to be seriously competitive, I have to spend another 10-20 hours writing stuff." And it's a huge turn off, when time is a premium. I know others have echoed a similar sentiment so I'm not alone.
So, have any other assumptions you'd like to air?
The problem here is the following - people don't undestand that even if you stack all the (PK) edges together (which are like 2), the cumulitive effect of them all will be like wearing an extra one average piece of gear. You can nilify that effect with like 1 buff effect. On top of that, all the edges are useful in different scenarios. Like fighting undeads or crusaders.
Some of them are so bad either that they are a complete waste of points. I say it because I've either tried most of them or/and have fought and discussed with people who've had them.
The rest are simply a convinience thing - carry more stuff, carry heavier stuff, regen hp/mana/moves a bit faster (and those seem to be true only in certain scenarios too).
Really, I would attribute like 0.1% the PK success of a character to Edges. Again, it's silly that a good player like you decides to talk about Edges as a reason for the hard entry to PK at 50.
On another note, RP points can be obtain by multiple means other than writing journals or even Role Play. Plenty are given for free for completing quests and even more can obtained for helping people rank (which one should be doing regardless of RP points). I've had characters with 0 RP awarded by the IMMs who had obtained more than 300 RP. It's super easy to get RP, I would say even easier than gathering consumables.
Lastly, IIRC, Kotrag had like 4 edges (including the one for Undeads - for Donovan - and I regretted buying it).
I know what you're saying but they aren't vanilla either. From my own experience, I had two edges on Grezath and it was a noticeable difference. Extra hp regen, and free extra -AC that stacked with my luck perk. In some very intense fights, the hp regen was a significant factor. There used to be a PK Log of a long fight between Grezath and H&R's avatar paladin (on the old forum) where his damage output took something like 5-6 x my HP bar throughout the fight. But I was never really in danger because i stacked health regen with the perks of undead and necro and caught as many tics as possible. And this was 2 years before the undead HP regen change. If the same exact scenario played out, I doubt I would have been able to take that beating and win without the edge. I would have to spend too many other ways getting hp back instead of keeping pressure on him. To be perfectly honest, PK'ing with Grezath was -mostly- a cake walk. Couple dwarf cleric sigil exceptions but If I had went on and got 5-6 more edges? He would have been practically unkillable.
It's different when you, @f0xx say edge stacking is mostly a waste. I bet the player of say, Ivessiana, would say otherwise. I would like that person's perspective. If I'm not mistaken, the player of Nebu said after Ives and Keshan got the edge against mals, he couldn't do much of anything to them. I can't say for sure, but I think Ives had the edge for extra damage vs undead stacked with her Blademaster undead mastery. Rheinian possibly also had it stacked with his High sight damage? Danpher probably has some nice edge stacks.
So anyway, your perspective is different. You've been around a long time, you can PK fine without edges. We get it. For someone else, it's probably a different story. My references to Rheinian and Ives are from Julsaard's perspective. If they didn't have the edge for extra undead damage, then I would have stood absolutely no chance if they did. Because that extra % of damage (i assume it's 10-15% more?) was the only margin for error I had.
I would love the IMMs to publish a list of dead chars in order of # of edges stacked, along with their PK records. That would be quite revealing.
Ok, I'm done hijacking the thread. Back on topic....
Firstly, why is the goal longetivity? There's nothing inherently good about long lived characters. The game needs both long lived and short.
Also @Mmm Beer you likely won't get that info as it backs up your point. Iirc ivesianna had about 1/3 of all the edges when I last asked them. I think Danpher has a close amount too.
1 hour ago, Mmm Beer said:
I would love the IMMs to publish a list of dead chars in order of # of edges stacked, along with their PK records. That would be quite revealing.
That's just such a wrong statistic to make any kind of conclusion on it's just beyond belief that you are asking about it. And is it going to show what? That people with good PK records have many edges?
And if so, what is that going to prove? That they have those good PK records because of said edges? So we are going to end it with a conclusion that those edges are the sole reason for the PK success of strong characters?
That's just absurd. I am pretty sure you don't even believe that yourself, so why make an argument out of it? I mean, a bit earlier you said yourself that you had a successful character without any edges. Why ask about such a statstic then?
Yes, edges give your character an edge, hence the name.
But so does combo, cabal skills, racial skills, cabal items, buffs, utility consumables, terrain, weapon choice, tactics, knowledge of the lands, speed, timing and I can go on like that for a very long time.
Of all the things that give you an edge in combat, Edges are the smallest. And they are very situational. If you want to cover many situation with multiple edges you will have to play for a VERY LONG TIME and make a HUGE influence over the lands. And if you do so, then you deserve all the edges you can get your hands on.
I know I care very little about Edges since they have so little PK value and there are many more nice things to spend your RP on, like customizable gear (which is also mediocre at best). So I find it super strange when someone wants to go after edges.
[edit] You know what also has more impact than edges? Perks. But I don't see anyone complaining about them. I guess that's because everyone gets one for free. If it's free it's OK, but if you have to work for it, nope. Too stronk.
10 minutes ago, Wade said:
Firstly, why is the goal longetivity?
Because long lived characters have a soul, they leave a mark in lands, they bring atmosphere. And everyone wins from that. Long lived characters are like a community service. And that is why it needs to be promoted. Because when it wasn't promoted, it was next to non-existent.
damnit f0xx knock it off im starting to like you :P
There's nothing about those qualities you mention that need longetivity as a pre requisite.
And some of the longest lived and memorable characters are from before there was any incentive.
If everyone played a single long lived character then alignment balance would stagnate, hunting groups would be a myth and Qstuff would never get the pk required.
If there's no benefit to the rp edges, why don't we make them purely cosmetic or QoL stuff? I'm sure if they're such a non factor then those with them will surely give them up.
In a game where people win or lose because of a single train from one prac'ing, you really think a free titanium full plate worth of stats or being able to dodge fired weapons isn't going to make or break? Build up enough of these advantages and you get characters that can only die if the stars align and turn enemy cabals into barren wastelands.
My point is an EDGE should not be UNKILLABLE. And that is exactly what stacking edges on very good PK'ers -OR- very powerful combos, will inevitably do with enough correct choices by the character. Capping simultaneous edges at 3 seems pretty reasonable by both our logic. I say they do help, you say they don't. So why would you care if they're capped?
18 minutes ago, Wade said:
There's nothing about those qualities you mention that need longetivity as a pre requisite.
And some of the longest lived and memorable characters are from before there was any incentive.
If everyone played a single long lived character then alignment balance would stagnate, hunting groups would be a myth and Qstuff would never get the pk required.
If there's no benefit to the rp edges, why don't we make them purely cosmetic or QoL stuff? I'm sure if they're such a non factor then those with them will surely give them up.
In a game where people win or lose because of a single train from one prac'ing, you really think a free titanium full plate worth of stats or being able to dodge fired weapons isn't going to make or break? Build up enough of these advantages and you get characters that can only die if the stars align and turn enemy cabals into barren wastelands.
Make ganging great again!
Some players have access to the old code.
I believe that to be out of balance.
Should we completely overhaul it to remove the imbalance?
How could a new player compete when someone else knows exactly how to exploit their weakness?
Balance is not a rigid thing. It's a precarious sway that we must learn to feel and adjust to. JMHO
Example. If some people spent half the time writing journals that they spend complaining they would extremely increase their point totals. Just an observation.
Beer can I ask how many of the pK edges you've actually purchased?
3 hours ago, Ulmusdorn said:
Make ganging great again!
Your awesome.
I would feel honored if people felt they needed help to take me down. #has the edges and still dies.
Edit. For clarity. Had the edges on a BARD and still lost.
I think it's worth investigating. If I'm way off here, then it should be evident. That's all.
I'm not sure this would lead to anything siginificant. Very long term chars will have more pks compared to short term chars. Very long term chars will also have more rp points compared to short term chars, even passively (rp logs other people post, helping ppl rank etc). Therefore they will likely also have more edges.
There is no logical conclusion in this though that the edges have anything to do with the pks. Both will increase with time.
On 2/18/2019 at 12:27 AM, Mmm Beer said:
My point is an EDGE should not be UNKILLABLE. And that is exactly what stacking edges on very good PK'ers
And my point is, you're totally wrong. On every level.
On 2/18/2019 at 12:27 AM, Mmm Beer said:
I say they do help, you say they don't. So why would you care if they're capped?
That's like saying Very poor taste for an example
I care because someone has a wrong assumption and wants to take an action based on that assumption. I care because Edges, just like perks, offer a small bit of customization in this game, and we should cherish this, not want to destroy it because it might affect 0.1% of your PK performance. I care because Edges are part of a system that stimulates people to RP and stick to their characters for a bit longer, despite difficulties. And lastly, I care because I've had most of them and know exactly what they do and how situational they are, and how little effect they have on your PK prowess. You on the other hand seem to know very little about them yet are so certain that they give such a huge advantage?
Someone above mentioned the perk that allows you to dodge arrows. Do you know what the exact chance to dodge is? There is also a perk that allows you to protect your stuff from thieves (i.e. a thief has a chance to fail a successful steal on you), do you know what that chance is either? Or the one you mentioned earlier that "protects you from mals" - do you know what those mals are and how does this perk actually even work? (I know I don't)
If I were you, I would plead for the IMMs to reveal the exact numbers, now that's an undertandable position (although if you truly cared, you could have asked on prayer - I know I've done it, and have been given answers), but to crusade agaisnst something which you don't know the mechanics of, is rather strange.
You know what's even more strange? Spending 150 RP on an edge on your feral ninja just to get some advantage against that Undead Elder DKN that has a warlock and bloodguard by his side and doesn't shy to gang you and seeing no change from it. And then hearing someone explain how OP edges are and how they make characters "unkillable".
1 hour ago, f0xx said:
I've had most of them and know exactly what they do ...
If I were you, I would plead for the IMMs to reveal the exact numbers ... I know I've done it, and have been given answers...
It's this type of information that should be shared between players if it's not made available by the imms directly. I can put this detailed information and other information like this on the wiki so people know exactly how minor or minuscule the bonus are, even when they stack. If they want to find out for themselves, they don't have to go to said wiki. Maybe this conversation would have stopped before it started.
35 minutes ago, Magick said:
It's this type of information that should be shared between players if it's not made available by the imms directly. I can put this detailed information and other information like this on the wiki so people know exactly how minor or minuscule the bonus are, even when they stack. If they want to find out for themselves, they don't have to go to said wiki. Maybe this conversation would have stopped before it started.
Exactly! If they want to find out, if ANYONE wants to find out, he would have found out by now. I mean, you did share that information last night on discord, I saw it myself. You explained perfectly accurate what the most useful edges do, then stacked them in a real situation with diminishing returns and concluded that the bonuses are super small, even when stacked with multiple edges. Noone seemed to say anything about that, even though quite a few people were active and chatty.
And now we are back to "oh edges make you unkillable".
It's much easier to complain than to learn and adapt. That's why I am surprised this comes from Beer. I would have expected it from some other members of this community, but that Beer was a surprise.