The nature of Nature, naturally

[Volgathras]

*Peras met Seng as he was traveling along the road. For some reason, they started to talk to each other, which eventually ended with them having a debate on the meanings of nature and natural.*

The Red Dragon Inn Commons

You stand within the Red Dragon Inn commons. A large wooden

bar spans the room here, and a very pretty serving girl is

here, pouring ales for the guests. A large stage has been

set up here for traveling performers, and a small stairway

leads upward to the rooms on the next floor.

A long wooden bar spans the room here.

Seng the Master of Dragons is here.

Tamara the Bartender is here, preparing ales.

Seng says 'I am not quite a fan of the Tribunals.'

*Seng was demonstrating his fighting prowess by killing guards, which brought up his lack of outlaw status.*

You say 'The Tribunal seem a very...'

You ponder the question.

You say 'Oppressive, lot.'

You sit down.

You say 'And that pretender of a cleric...'

Seng says 'Shufei tried his best to capture me.'

Seng sits down on a bar.

Seng says 'Amusing to me.'

Seng says 'A demon Tribunal.'

You say 'Yes, I have not asked Master Volgathras his thoughts on that.'

You say 'I mean, that seems quite the opposite of chaos.'

Seng says 'So you say you are against those that seem unnatural?'

*Peras mentioned earlier that his purpose was to destroy those he deemed unnatural.*

You say 'Indeed.'

Seng says 'Yet your married to a demon God.'

You say 'One needs a purpose if one is to find contentment.'

You say 'And it is a suitable purpose, I think.'

You say 'As for my husband...'

You say 'He follows the natural way of life.'

Seng says 'His life is unnatural.'

You say 'How do you figure?'

Seng says 'Demons are not natural beings.'

Peras crosses his arms, frowning at Seng.

You say 'By whose standards?'

Seng chuckles politely.

Seng says 'Nature.'

Seng says 'Do you agree?'

You say 'No.'

Seng says 'Where is your husband?'

Seng peers around himself intently.

You say 'He's probably off somewhere toying with someone's soul.'

Seng frowns.

You say 'He does that a lot.'

Seng says 'And what is the purpose of such?'

Seng says 'The soul should not be played with.'

You say 'To spread chaos, I imagine.'

You say 'I mean, that is what He does.'

Seng says 'I cannot see how you could think a demon is more natural than an elf, or even a dwarf.'

You say 'They are powerful, strong.'

Seng says 'Whom? The demons?'

You say 'They are masters of their art, predators.'

You say 'This is a necessary part of nature.'

Seng says 'Indeed, but Nature did not create demons.'

You say 'How do you figure?'

Seng says 'Demons were God created.'

You say 'So was nature.'

You say 'Chaos came before order, you know.'

Seng says 'Yes, but Nature did not create demons.'

Seng says 'Therefore demons are not natural to this world.'

You say 'By that logic, Gods are unnatural.'

Seng says 'Demons are consumed souls of humans.'

You say 'They are created by my Master.'

You say 'He is natural, and by extension...'

Seng says 'Gods are unnatural, but they do not walk this world as yourself and I do.'

You say 'I am married to a God.'

You say 'You cannot convince me that they do not walk this world.'

Seng says 'Your husband is unnatural.'

You say 'I respectfully disagree.'

Seng says 'They walk this world, but like I said, not the same way you or I do.'

Seng says 'For something to be natural, it must be born of Nature.'

You say 'Mm, that is a narrow definition.'

Seng says 'Narrow?'

You say 'I hate this dung water they serve and call a drink.'

You drop a tankard of ale.

A tankard of ale shatters into a million pieces!

You say 'Garbage water...'

Seng says 'How do you think such is a narrow definition?'

You ponder the question.

You say 'Well, what is nature?'

You say 'That's the real question.'

Seng sits down and thinks deeply.

You say 'I mean, if you define it as having come from the Goddess Gaia...'

You say 'Well, that's pretty narrow, isn't it.'

You say 'Why would not the creations of other Gods be natural?'

Seng says 'Not natural to this world.'

Seng says 'Perhaps in another.'

You shake your head.

Seng says 'But, not to this one.'

You say 'You're not making any sense.'

You say 'At any rate, I don't see it that way.'

You say 'I don't distinguish between this world and another.'

You say 'Demons act as the creatures of nature.'

You say 'Thus they are natural.'

Seng chuckles politely.

Seng shakes his head.

You say 'Elves do not act as the creatures of nature.'

You say 'And they are unnatural.'

Seng says 'Demons are not from this world.'

You say 'But they are natural.'

Seng says 'Because they create chaos?'

Seng says 'That does not make a demon natural to this world.'

You say 'Because they are strong and do not hold up the weak.'

You say 'Because they live in conflict.'

You say 'This is the basis of nature.'

Seng chuckles politely.

Seng says 'You speak of a different kind of nature.'

You say 'It is the kind of which I care.'

You say 'And it is the essence of your "nature" regardless.'

Seng raises an eyebrow.

You say 'Conflict, the promotion of strength, the elimination of weakness.'

You say 'Are these not the tenants of the natural world?'

Seng says 'That is not quite the essence of nature on this world.'

You say 'How do you figure?'

Seng says 'Conflict is created by those of conscious awareness.'

You say 'No.'

You say 'There is always conflict.'

Seng says 'There is no conflict between bunnies.'

You say 'Yes, there is.'

Seng says 'Explain.'

You say 'If there are too many bunnies, they starve.'

You say 'If there are too many males, many do not mate.'

You say 'If there are too many wolves, they eat all the bunnies, then starve.'

You say 'Conflict is everywhere.'

You say 'And it is essential to nature.'

You say 'To remove that conflict is unnatural.'

Seng says 'What you speak of with your "conflict, the promotion of strength, the elimination of weakness" is just a corrupted version of nature.'

You say 'I obviously disagree.'

You say 'And you offer no evidence for your argument, regardless.'

Seng says 'Nature is the promotion of life, which can only happen in death.'

You say 'Agreed.'

Seng says 'It is a circle of life.'

You say 'Still agreed.'

Seng says 'I do not look at this circle as conflict.'

You say 'But it is.'

You say 'Without conflict, there is stagnation.'

You say 'This is the death of nature.'

You say 'The circle ceases without conflict.'

Seng says 'So explain to me how an elf remains to be unnatural.'

You say 'Because Elves hold up the weak.'

Seng says 'The circle does not cease without conflict.'

You say 'It does.'

Seng says 'Everything will die in due time with age.'

Seng says 'There is no conflict required for death.'

You say 'But will it better itself?'

You say 'Nature is a constant struggle to adapt.'

Seng says 'Will what better itself?'

Seng says 'For life to exist, so must death.'

You say 'If the bunny does not continue to better itself to mate, to find food, and to escape wolves, the bunny ceases to exist.'

You say 'If the bunny ceases to exist, so does the wolf.'

Seng says 'The wolf can adapt to survive if bunnies ceased to exist.'

You say 'If the grass upon which the bunny feasts does not better itself to survive the gnawing of bunnies, all three cease to exist.'

You say 'Yes, the wolf can adapt because it can better itself.'

You say 'But if all of this stops, everything dies.'

You say 'And nothing more is born.'

Seng says 'Everything in this world can adapt.'

You say 'Yes, exactly, because there is conflict, everything can adapt.'

You say 'Except the unnatural.'

Seng says 'Elves are still natural beings.'

You say 'Mm, I would think not.'

Seng says 'Undeads, vampires, demons, and avatars are unnatural beings.'

You say 'Avatars, perhaps.'

Seng says 'An Avatar is the same as a demon.'

Seng says 'Just tipped on the opposite side of the scale.'

You say 'No.'

You say 'Demons do not hold up the weak.'

Seng says 'What is this "weak" you keep speaking of?'

You say 'You honestly think a demon would defend an urchin from the wrath of an avatar?'

Seng says 'So the "weak" are those whom cannot defend themselves?'

You say 'Do you think the demon would throw itself in front of the avatar's death beam to save the life of a child?'

*Death beam?*

You say 'Would a demon sacrifice itself to save one who is weaker than itself and will always be such?'

Seng says 'Saving a life does not disrupt the flow of Nature.'

You say 'Saving a life undeserved does.'

Seng says 'Undeserved?'

You say 'If by sacrificing oneself to save one weaker than oneself, one allows the weaker being to become stronger than oneself, then nature is preserved.'

Seng says 'So a man whom is old, and cannot defend himself is undeserved of life?'

You say 'Yes, that is true.'

You nod at Seng.

You say 'Unless...'

You say 'He has other use.'

You say 'Such as his mind.'

Seng says 'There is use in all life.'

You say 'Is there?'

You say 'I would disagree.'

You say 'So would the bunnies.'

Seng says 'The bunnies would disagree?'

You say 'Indeed.'

Seng says 'How so?'

You say 'Else the women bunnies would mate with all the men bunnies.'

You say 'That they do not shows that they do not believe the ones with whom they do not mate deserving of life.'

Seng says 'If a female bunny does not mate with a certain male bunny... that does not mean that male bunny is undeserving of life.'

You say 'If the male bunny does not mate with any bunny and brings nothing to the bunny pack and cannot hide itself from the wolf, then it does not deserve to live.'

You ponder the question.

You say 'I suppose only the latter is true, though.'

Seng says 'In your terms, if I decided never to mate, then every female would be undeserving of life.'

You say 'You twist my words.'

You frown at what he did.

Seng says 'I did not twist them.'

You say 'Really, it all comes down to living.'

You say 'If one is alive, then one deserves to be alive for as long as one is alive.'

You say 'But, if one is only alive because others see to it that one is alive...'

You say 'And one does not provide power to those others...'

You say 'Then one does not deserve to be alive.'

Seng says 'Your thoughts on life are strange.'

You shrug.

You say 'Most people's are.'

You say 'Especially the so called defenders of nature.'

You say 'Such fools, they are.'

Seng says 'The defenders of Nature combat all things unnatural to this world.'

Seng says 'Being demons, undeads, vampires, and avatars.'

You say 'All things they believe unnatural.'

You say 'These things they combat are not unnatural, however.'

Seng says 'They are.'

You say 'Oh, right, you use your world term, again.'

Seng says 'Humans are born naturally, as are elves and dwarves.'

You say 'This is the folly.'

You say 'One cannot view nature in a vacuum.'

You say 'Nature, like death, is absolute.'

Seng says 'Demons, undeads, vampires, and avatars are not natural. They are not even born.'

You say 'And unconstrained to a single world.'

You say 'At any rate, they are born.'

Seng says 'They are not.'

You say 'Created, then.'

You say 'Which is birth.'

Seng says 'Birth?'

Seng says 'No.'

You say 'You are saying that one must come from within its parents or from a seed to be natural?'

Seng says 'Demons are nothing but twisted souls.'

Seng says 'Twisted souls that consume the body and mind of a human.'

You say 'They are born from a weaker being.'

You say 'So what if the weaker being is destroyed in the process?'

Seng says 'Souls are not born.'

You say 'So, souls are unnatural, now?'

Seng says 'Souls are transfered from death, to give new life. A new form.'

You frown disapprovingly.

You say 'When a being dies, its soul goes to the Isle of Exile.'

Seng says 'And life is not to be tossed around like a rock in a field.'

You say 'Actually, it is, at least in nature.'

Seng says 'Life is quite simple.'

You say 'I agree.'

Seng says 'Food, water, mating.'

You say 'Conflict.'

Seng says 'Life and death.'

Seng says 'Not conflict.'

You say 'Yes conflict.'

You say 'Always conflict.'

You say 'Conflict for food, conflict for water, conflict for mating.'

You say 'It's all conflict.'

Seng chuckles politely.

Seng says 'Ok, let us just say there is conflict.'

You say 'Sure.'

Seng says 'How does this make a demon natural?'

Seng says 'In your sense of the word natural.'

You say 'Demons bring conflict to those who no longer are influenced by it.'

Seng says 'Demons bring nothing, but death and chaos.'

You say 'They remove the weak as is necessary for nature to continue.'

You say 'Death is part of nature.'

You say 'Chaos allows for adaptation.'

Seng says 'Yes, but demons are not.'

You say 'Adaptation is part of nature.'

Seng says 'Demons are not a part of nature.'

Seng says 'Not on this world.'

You say 'So you claim, but nature is not confined to one world.'

Seng says 'Demons would destroy this world.'

You say 'No, they would not.'

You say 'That is not their goal at all.'

You say 'And if it were, what makes you think they would succeed?'

You say 'They breed conflict, and they are not immortal.'

You say 'They will balance out just like the rest of nature.'

Seng says 'I know they would not succeed.'

You say 'Those who cannot adapt will be destroyed.'

You say 'As is common in nature.'

You say 'And the Elves will be among them.'

Seng says 'Elves do nothing to destroy nature.'

You say 'They are unnatural.'

You say 'They cannot adapt.'

You say 'They will all die.'

Seng says 'Adapt to what?'

Seng says 'They have no need to adapt.'

You say 'To demons, to undead, to a lacking food supply.'

Seng says 'Lacking food supply?'

Seng says 'There is no lack in food supply.'

You say 'If such a thing were to occur.'

You say 'At any rate, the strong elves will all sacrifice themselves to save the weak ones.'

You say 'Then the weak ones will die because they are weak.'

You say 'And then there will be no more elves.'

Seng says 'Just because one is weak does not mean they are undeserving of life.'

You say 'If one cannot live, they are not deserving of life.'

You say 'They are deserving of death.'

Seng says 'There are many means of living.'

You say 'That is the way of things.'

You say 'If the elves survive the conflict, then they are deserving of life.'

You say 'But I do not believe they will.'

Seng says 'The elves will survive.'

You say 'We shall see.'

You say 'Well, not us, as we'll be dead by then.'

You say 'But someone will, probably.'

*Probably.*

Seng says 'The Elves are possibly the longest living race.'

You say 'As far as lifespan is concerned, sure. They do not age quickly.'

Seng says 'Demons are not even living creatures.'

You say 'How do you figure?'

Seng says 'Demons are nothing but tortured souls.'

You say 'They die, like every other living creature.'

Seng says 'Only the host of which they take over is living.'

Seng says 'The host dies.'

You say 'It's still life.'

Seng says 'Not the demons life.'

You say 'Sure it is.'

Seng says 'It is still the humans life.'

You say 'It's a soul possessing a body, just like any other life, as you claim.'

You say 'Mind, I know little of souls.'

You say 'The human is dead, though.'

You say 'And the demon is alive.'

Seng says 'No.'

Seng says 'The human remains a host.'

You say 'How not? By your very definition, that is what they are.'

Seng says 'By my definition?'

Seng chuckles politely.

You say 'You said for life to exist, a soul must inhabit a body.'

You say 'That is what demons do.'

You say 'It is their body because the human soul leaves.'

Seng falls to the ground and rolls around laughing hysterically.

Seng says 'Bunnies do not have souls.'

You say 'They don't?'

You frown disapprovingly.

You say 'This whole soul thing is too much for me.'

Seng says 'The human soul leaves upon death.'

You say 'Right.'

You say 'So the human is dead.'

Seng says 'No.'

You say 'You're not making any sense.'

Seng says 'The human remains alive, and becomes the host for the tainted soul.'

Seng says 'If the human was dead, demons would have no reason to eat or drink.'

You say 'I'll have to ask my Master about that.'

Seng says 'Demons are nothing but tainted souls.'

You say 'Still, the basis of nature is conflict and strength, which demons bring.'

Seng says 'Have you heard of a soul eating and drinking?'

You shrug.

You say 'Do I know anything of souls?'

You say 'I'm no cleric.'

*Obviously.*

Seng says 'There are many things stronger than demons... does that mean all demons are undeserving of life?'

Seng says 'By your logic.'

You say 'If the demons cannot survive, then no, they are not.'

You say 'But I believe they will adapt like everything else that deserves to exist.'

You say 'For they live by the laws of nature.'

Seng says 'Nature is not to kill for no reason.'

You say 'Not always, no.'

Seng says 'Not always?'

Seng says 'Not ever.'

You say 'I would disagree with that.'

You say 'Many feline creatures kill for no reason.'

You say 'Same with some apes.'

Seng says 'There is reason.'

You say 'And really, it depends on how you define reason.'

Seng says 'Everything that promotes life is deserving of life.'

Seng says 'Only in life is there death.'

You shake your head.

You say 'We're never going to agree on this.'

You say 'And I grow weary.'

*Thus ends the debate, inconclusive as always.*

Seng chuckles politely.

You say 'Besides, I'm not one for philosophy.'

Seng says 'Has been quite a long debate.'

You say 'Yes, perhaps too long.'

You say 'I don't normally speak on such a level.'

Seng says 'Neither do I.'

Seng says 'Saddens me that I must retire and can no longer debate with you.'

You say 'Meh.'

Peras waves his hand dismissively.

Seng says 'As this chat could last a life time.'

You say 'Yes, that's the problem.'

You say 'I've better things to do with my time than debate my entire life away.'

Seng chuckles politely.

You say 'Right, well, I am off, then.'

Seng says 'Well, I must be off as well.'

Seng gallantly tips his hat to you.

You nod.

*At this point, the two strangers go their separate ways. Will they ever meet again? Will the debate ever be concluded?*