Not the point...Isn't there a point where they COULD become corrupt? If so, couldn't you say if he stayed behind the law at THAT point he would be corrupt?
Isn't there a point at which every good man will oppose a corrupt society?
If so, is he really lawful, or a neutral ethos who agrees with the current system?
If you've ever noticed, you already do fight to your last breath. You get tossed in jail as you "lose consciousness".
You can't differentiate ethos from align...they are intertwined too closely. And I'm not sure where this fallacy of preservation of all Life comes from for goods, but it's not in the help files.
HELP GOOD
Goods consider the need of others in tandem with their own. Many good-
aligns will place the well-being of others above that of themselves.
A few have been known to shun violence and war altogether, but most
Lightwalkers will fight against evil when necessary, in order to
protect themselves and others. Goods who are overly bloodthirsty
against neutrals will be reprimanded, and raising one's hand against
a fellow Lightwalker is a sure way to incite the anger of the gods.
Of all classes, paladins clerics, and healers are the ones most expect to
uphold those ideals.
See Also: HELP LAWFUL GOOD, NEUTRAL GOOD, CHAOTIC GOOD, REQUEST
LAWFUL GOOD
Peace and cooperation are to be preserved for the good of all, according
to the believes of these individuals. Pacifist are of this path almost
without exception, although most lawful goods believe that certain
situations warrant action. They also believe in preserving the peace
within protected areas for the safety of the entire citizenry, so they
uphold the laws whether Justices are present or not.
See Also: HELP GOOD
NEUTRAL GOOD
Those of this path are strong followers of the Light, above all else.
The weak must be defended, and [lawful neutrals] <---Should say neutral goods act to ensure that right triumphs over wrong, whether by assisting the law in a time of chaos, or acting against an unjust government. Even if their actions will sometimes bring about consequences to themselves, they are willing to accept this in order to do what is good and right.
See Also: HELP GOOD
CHAOTIC GOOD
Rebels and revolutionaries, these idealists strive to improve society
through upheaval. They are the over throwers of tyranny and the fighters
for freedom. They are not afraid to attack the law if they believe that
the establishment is corrupt, or if the system is protecting wrongdoers.
They believe in change for the betterment of all, even by violence if
necessary.
See Also: HELP GOOD
Based on these definitions, I've seen a lot of CG's that probably need to check their RP since they more often than not place ethos over align.
Even if you're chaotic good I would think the lives of goodies, even goodies in say a justice cabal with evils or a corrupt justice cabal, should be sacrosanct. You would want to kill the evil justices, and overthrow the cabal, but not kill the goodies--rather try to save them from the corrupt system. If you were lawful good you wouldn't try to kill even an evil justice. Neutral you might depending on the circumstances.
AHHHHHH!!!!!! Too much to reply to!!!
Lawful goods are being good first. Their avenue for accomplishing "good" deeds is the law. By delivering criminals of any align for judgment, they are indeed throwing them on the "mercy" of the law because they believe the law to be good. If the law says they must die, it is for the benefit of all.
paladin vs shaman: shaman has killed 1.7 google people (all out of town). paladin has one kill(that shaman, inside the city). The GOOD Law Enforcement takes out the paladin in the name of good? >cough< outcast >cough< The paladin, not allowed to defend himself against the GOOD LE, runs, fleeing from battle. But over time, he gets lowered to 5 hp where a drow thief sneezes on him and kills him. And the GOOD LE has no responsibility in the death of another good? for a good, killing a good should be as wrong as severely injuring a good is as wrong as telling a baddie where a good guy is hiding. OUTCAST!
But there are other options. If it is the systems fault, don't let GOODS be LE. LE is overpowered as it is. Maybe they need more enemies. Gonna have to add something to the polls section.
you can't claim "self defense" against a police officer who uses justified force to arrest you with probable cause to do so and neither can you claim self defense against a Tribunal when you are wanted or an outlaw.
PCs aren't average citizens. They are Chuck Norris in Nam saving POWs. If that's the angle y'all want though, limit their jurisdiction. You can't have a dkn in Val Miran bossing people around (or a healer in Mir).
And if you want some real world examples....
A Christian cop who arrests someone blocking an abortion clinic. Law over beliefs.
A cop arresting someone for a crime they know they didn't commit. Law over reality.
Oh and...
HELP GOOD
Goods consider the need of others in tandem with their own. Many good-aligns will place the well-being of others above that of themselves.
A few have been known to shun violence and war altogether, but most
Lightwalkers will fight against evil when necessary, in order to
protect themselves and others. Goods who are overly bloodthirsty
against neutrals will be reprimanded, and raising one's hand against
**
a fellow Lightwalker is a sure way to incite the anger of the gods.**
Why is it okay for GOOD LE to raise their hand against a fellow Lightwalker?
CHAOTIC GOOD
Rebels and revolutionaries, these idealists strive to improve society
through upheaval. They are the over throwers of tyranny and the fighters
for freedom. They are not afraid to attack the law if they believe that
**
the establishment is corrupt, or if the system is protecting wrongdoers.****
They believe in change for the betterment of all, even by violence if****
necessary.**
So why can't they kill good LE?
And...
This ties in to what all goods have in common, the fact that they want betterment of society
No they don't, not all of them. And that is where this whole argument fits in> Some goods want goodness and some want order. My point is that one is ethos and one is align.
Since it's wrong to complain without giving suggestions:
Tribunal is a world government. Icky. Make them in charge of cities only. No guards outside the gates. No arresting people outside the gates.
or
Break it down into individual cities like before. Let goods cover Val Miran under val Miran's law, etc.
Do away with the automated system. Give the players some flexibility. Give the cities the ability to enforce their own laws. Why can't Mir have a law declaring elves to be animals and allow anyone to kill them. Or val Miran ban necros.
Really look at the good vs good situation. What is the difference between a good justice arresting a good so that the "system" can kill them and a good member of cabal A mercying a good member of cabal B so that an evil in cabal A can kill them? Maybe drop the autoforsake code for PKs? Of course that would be more work for the imms. Or do the opposite: forsake them for "rasing a hand against another lightwalker".
This is really a tight argument. But in the name of balance I don't understand how "the gods" allow goods to attack a good in order to arrest them but be mad at a good for defending themselves. Why would the gods care about the laws of man?
edit: forgot an idea. Maybe we say screw good vs evil and just use religion. Some gods would allow their followers to attack one another and some would not. And, of course, fighting across religions is a given.
Because only lawful goods attach morality to order.
Other lawfuls see order as a tool to be used.
The law in and of itself isn't "good" or "evil". It just is. It is simply the opposite of chaos.
Other lawfuls see order as a tool to be used.
???? Wouldn't lawful neutrals be the only ones who truly believed in law? Evil would 99% of the time see law as a tool for themselves. But goods... aren't they using it as a tool also? If law isn't the end goal, why let them be LE?
He does have a point. If only goods attatched morality to order, why is order a religion for neutrals?
Wouldnt the simplest solution be to let chaotic goods attack and kill lawful goods without getting punished automaticlally by the gods?
If you've ever noticed, you already do fight to your last breath. You get tossed in jail as you "lose consciousness".
Ya, but that's not realistic, which is why wanted posters used to say "Dead or Alive", if a man doesn't want to come willingly...he doesn't have to.
