March Changes

[Erelei]

Discussions for Changes listed HERE should be discussed below.

[Magick]

1) "String edit commands have been updated when you're in the append_string editor. (when you type desc edit, not edit, etc)"

So .r becomes .rl and I take it that the remaining commands .c, .f, etc remain unchanged?

 

2) "You will now gain CP even when not in a cabal."

• Upon getting into a cabal, you'll have all CPs accumulated while not caballed.

For clarity, I assume that this means they are held in a 'cold storage' type thing until you become inducted, then they're all heaped on you at once rather than someone uncaballed having the ability to spend these via bounty or MERCHANT, correct?

 

 

[Erelei]

1. .r remains, .rl is an addition.
2. Correct. You get the CP when you're caballed - you can't use any CP before.

[tassinvegeta]

Yes! So many changes I had hoped for came through. Thank you Santa Clause.. erm Morlhach. 

 

• Resist_magic races will no longer, oddly, get poison damage from a specific water container (where all others fail to give poison damage).

If this is the container I'm thinking of, this sounds like Dwarves/Duergars/halflings can no longer poison themselves at all? This sounds pretty game breaking for them. Perhaps I'm missing something?

 

 

Btw my Dwarf is still waiting for his lich application to get approved

[sith_da_pirate]

If the Dwarf/duerger/halfing poison thing is true I think that is a horrid change. Its hard enough to get a thief/ninja to envenom packs for you not to mention how much a single pack cost. I thought that was the whole reason. Rouges/Necro/Psi/Ninja/bard/Vamp/Lich/rangers all have a huge edge over those classes now with no way to stop their sleeping/blackjack/strangles.

[Atticus]

I'd have to agree with sith, I thought that was exactly the reason why brews didn't work. Because the potency of the poison wasn't enough for the magic resist races. Man, thieves are sharpening their daggers as they read this change heh.

[tassinvegeta]

Yeah I always thought that item was intended to be at a higher level. 

 

Hope this isn't true. Otherwise...

Commence deletions of all magic resist races and commence rolling of rogues necros vamps and liches 

[Erelei]

I think the issue here is that people have grown accustomed to being able to poison a race that was never actually supposed to be poisoned. Dwarves keep normal size, gain magic_resist, and also gain a vulnerability that isn't easily able to be taken advantage of. 

"But they have the -10% to skills on water!" you say - well, true, but since when has that actually been perceived as a horrible downside? I snoop dwarves/duergar fighting on water all the time, and the reduction in skills is less than adequate - you might even say they're virtually unfazed: what's 90% to 100% dodge/parry/other defenses? Not a lot.

Halflings are magic resist too, but have an illicit downside: size.

The fact remains, magic resist races were coded to have this specific downside. To resist poison, and plague, and a plethora of other magical ailments comes at a price. Why shouldn't you be affected by poison in an instance where it's cast on you, but suddenly have it be beneficial to you when you need it to be? I think those above are just absolutely used to the wonderful advantage of magic resist while not really having to deal with a downside. 

That said, if this becomes too much of an issue, ie, I find out that this fix was too much of a problem and sways balanced, I'll look at the issue again. Until then, though, I think rogues need to be scary again.

[sith_da_pirate]

Get rid of Water Vuln and it would be even, The fact that A rouge/caster can abuse their ability to Strangle blackjack sleep and just rob people blind without being able to attack them bc they are IE hidden. Whats the point of fighting rouges and such if they have 100% the upper hand in every ceniero now

[sith_da_pirate]

Magic resistant is just that, Those races can still be sickened plauges and a ton of other ailments, if you want a race to be magic Resistant to the point where Magic dosen't effect them then no spell should ever land on those races, High lvl water sack at lvl 40 for 10k plus finding a rouge willing to poison it at level fifty is cost enough, were as anyone else can spend 5 gold and drink brews all day long. Or am I wrong?

[Erelei]

Magic resistant does not equal magic immune. 
 

Rogues don't have 100% upper hand, either.

[Trick]

Not easily taken advantage of..? You mean the water exotic, the water staff, the water axe, the water spear, and the water mace that shoots water spells are deemed hard to get...? C'mon man, haha! You're not for real with that statement, lol.

The poisoned packs DO come at a price in a few different ways that were already brought up. 

Rogues are and always have been scary. A thief can full loot without killing you. A ninja can kill you in a single hit that you can't defend. It can land even if you're awake!! The issue with rogues is the size of the player base. It's too small for them to appropriately implement their ambush tactics easily when people can easily hide out somewhere far away. 

This is an absolutely AWFUL change.

 

 

 

[sith_da_pirate]

Right, so since they arent magic immune drinking a Lvl 50 vemon should be more then capable of poisoning them.

 

[sith_da_pirate]

what can stop a thief, from blackjacking, hiding, and repeating this until Pk without fail or any way to counter? Not trying to be a stickler I just think this is wrong.

[sith_da_pirate]

No to mention there are TONS of weapons used to attack their Vuln, Chaosweapons included. Plus Bard instruments. So that Vuln is the most sought after abuse of a race besides Fire to Feral and Ice to FG

[Atticus]

Yeah, I'm usually the guy saying I get this change... but it's kinda messed up man.

[Erelei]

There isn't a water staff, or water axe. (correct me if I'm wrong with the name of them, so I can confirm). Regardless, I have other ideas that would make this change less 'unnerving'. We'll see how this goes first, though - and when the thoughts are brought up with the rest of the staff, we'll decide from there. 

Because, really, no one can really justify all the perks a dwarf gets - isn't that why there's so many of them? Behind ogres, there are more dwarves/duergars played than any other race currently - especially active.

[sith_da_pirate]

Staff of Aquatic souls....Water Staff

[sith_da_pirate]

I would say Drow/Elf Gnome/Ogre are more played races then A dwarf by far. I've seen about two active dwarfs in Fl to this day. Not sure where the rest are hiding

[Erelei]

Ah, yes. My bad. Currently used by absolutely no one, by the way. Easily overlooked

[sith_da_pirate]

• Obtaining the proper containers and getting a rouge who isnt out to just knock you out and full loot you then walk away to poison them for you it harder to come by, not to mention overlooked?

[Celerity]

If the staff plan was to tone dwarves, I think there are other ways to do it. However, I'm inclined to believe that the only strength dwarves have are in clerics and that speaks more to cleric imbalance than anything. As far as I know, Anamus was the first dwarf cleric to really be a 'powerhouse' in PK in all of FL's history, so even that example is questionable. Again, that was probably much more of a cabal/class imbalanced synergy than the race itself. Besides clerics, only blademasters jump to mind for exceedingly powerful dwarves--which was likely more of a problem with blademasters as well.

 

There is no way that poison was an intended weakness to magic-resist races because the people who coded the races (or designed the original strengths/stats, taken from paper DnD) had no idea that there would be a 'blackjack' skill or that it could be circumvented by poison. Even in FL's history, poison to counter blackjack wasn't a tactic in 1.0, way after dwarf stats were set in AR or CF.

 

The real issue here, and has always been, is that poison wakes you up. Virigoth hated it. I even hated it in the beginning, but it became a necessary tactic. Maybe we can rethink blackjack, or rather sleep in general, and how to balance it without poison. There must be a better way.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Celerity
Expanded

[Erelei]

Merc/Rom's base races included Dwarves and Duergar, with the inherent magical resist, too. 

Poison was also included in the base merc/rom codebase we're working with, too.

But if dwarves are having issues with clerics, blademasters, and other multiple classes, it would be a dwarf issue, not a class issue. That said, yes, there probably is a better way to deal with it. There's been absolutely no suggestions as to what, however, instead, those who are against it haven't really given options other than 'change it back'.

[Erelei]

50 minutes ago, sith_da_pirate said:

I would say Drow/Elf Gnome/Ogre are more played races then A dwarf by far. I've seen about two active dwarfs in Fl to this day. Not sure where the rest are hiding

Unfortunately I have a nifty little command that lists the ratios and numbers of each actively played race. Dwarf outnumber elves and drow, and gnome. Sorry.

[sith_da_pirate]

^^^^ Seems Legit