The Rules of Engagement

[Kyzarius]

Over the years there have been some truths that I feel solidify very soundly in cabal warfare against multiple opponents.  Be it 2v1, 2v2, or 3vX.

Usually these are outcomes that the imms support from my experience. And the resulting effect brought on by your actions are not in anyway frowned upon.  

Yes some recent battles have inspired this post.  And honestly if I am just totally mistaken please set me straight.

This isn't meant as a jab at anyone else really.  Just what I feel is fair game, and knowing it is could help you avoid, or know when to be prepared for a valid tagging or double team. 

 

1.  If outnumbered, and you are told who your foe will be, yet assault someone else, do not be surprised when the before stated foe attacks you.  

2. If your enemy has your standard, and more than one defender is present, charging the altar will result in everyone pouncing you.

3. If you defend your standard by sitting at the cabal guardian expect multiple foes to ride in and attempt to kill you and or the guardian.  This is especially true if you start engaging more than one enemy.  For Example if player A rides in attacking the guardian, and you attack them, then they flee.  Then player B rides in attacking the Guardian, and you attack them too, do not be surprised if both of them attack you the next time they ride in.  Best thing to do here is establish who you are going to fight and fight them. 

4. If you kill one enemy and hang out trying to loot, you should be ready for the other to come in and attack you to get you off their buddies corpse. 

5. If someone is chasing you, and you run up and attack someone else do not be surprised when the original aggressor attacks. 

6. If you are fighting one cabal enemy in a 2v1 expect the other to attack your cabal.  If you then run back and attack them in defense do not be surprised if they fight back and your first enemy also continues to fight.

7.  If you are at the disadvantage then the Best practice is to face your chosen enemy. They have numbers, they choose.  Face them, beat them, loot their weapons.  Then fight the other one or retrieve the standard and fight them.  

Like i said, just some situations where ending up against multiple foes can and will happen.  Thought?

[sarcon]

Alright, who has the extra stone tablets? Who has the chisel? Let's get to work people, chop chop. 

[tassinvegeta]

We should call this the PK Commandments and force them into each pk log in the pk log section as a reminder for everyone. It's amazing to me how many people still don't expect these situations to occur to them.

[sarcon]

1 hour ago, tassinvegeta said:

We should call this the PK Commandments and force them into each pk log in the pk log section as a reminder for everyone. It's amazing to me how many people still don't expect these situations to occur to them.

 

+1

[Pali]

1. Agreed 100%.

2. Likewise.

3. Agreed with a caveat: the side that outnumbers the other should still show some degree of restraint depending on the numbers involved.  If it's 3+ against 1, two at a time trying to cap or defend is enough.

4. Agreed, but with the corollary that the one who dies and has the buddy standing by to protect his corpse shouldn't complain if the person who kills him just full loots because he doesn't have time to pick through it at the moment.  If you want your opponent to only take one or two things, have your buddy stand off for a moment so they have time to do so.  Else, you're effectively forcing them to full loot if they want to get anything from you.

5. Agreed 100%.

6. Uh huh.

7. Yep.

[f0xx]

You can't have the same standards of engagement for cabals like Nexus, Knight and Warmaster. If you are in one of the honorable cabals (Knight or WM) you should always try to make the battle honorable (aka fair).
 

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1.  If outnumbered, and you are told who your foe will be, yet assault someone else, do not be surprised when the before stated foe attacks you.  

7.  If you are at the disadvantage then the Best practice is to face your chosen enemy. They have numbers, they choose.  Face them, beat them, loot their weapons.  Then fight the other one or retrieve the standard and fight them.  

Agreed to an extent. Those two are the same thing so I will comment on the together. "They have numbers, so they choose" is a rule which would apply to an evil character to whom honor means nothing. If I am of a honorable cabal and/or consider myself a classy player, I would let the enemy decide whom to fight. Cabal rank comes into consideration as well. If both me and my target agree to fight each other, but my target decides to switch his target mid fight, I won't back up.

 

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2. If your enemy has your standard, and more than one defender is present, charging the altar will result in everyone pouncing you.

Ultimately, that's up to your cabal immortal to decide. Usually, it is frowned upon, unless the one guy is very strong.

 

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3. If you defend your standard by sitting at the cabal guardian expect multiple foes to ride in and attempt to kill you and or the guardian.  This is especially true if you start engaging more than one enemy.

5. If someone is chasing you, and you run up and attack someone else do not be surprised when the original aggressor attacks. 

Those are also the same. Agreed. I would coordinate with my cabal mate who attacks who. If the defender does continue to engage both of us, repeatedly, while in close proximity to each other, then he should expect both of us to answer the aggression.

 

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6. If you are fighting one cabal enemy in a 2v1 expect the other to attack your cabal.  If you then run back and attack them in defense do not be surprised if they fight back and your first enemy also continues to fight.

Agreed to an extent. Once again this depends on the cabal I am in. If I am in a honorable cabal I would first arrange a switch of targets. If they guy keeps attacking both opponents in close proximity, he's fair game.

 

If I am plying a Quest thing, then I consider each one of those as a NO. I would not get close to anyone who even has a chance to fight someone else. If he decides to switch targets mid fight, I would stop chasing him.

[egreir]

[Ulmusdorn]

I'd add one thing. 

The higher ranked cabald chars (E+) should let their minions fight in a pitched battle.

[Aulian]

We should also remember that these are suggestions.

If you're Zroth and happy to deal with the consequences of attacking everything that walks.. Do it. (You'll have more fun imo).

 

 

[Kyzarius]

Keep in mind that a lot of this is confusion based.

When someone is told by their mates that they are up, they prep, take a deep breath and go in.  

If you then just ignore the challenge and go off on someone else you create confusion.  

The result of which is getting tagged by well meaning people because you disregarded the rules of engagement.

This isn't an honorable, or dishonorable thing, @f0xx, it is not like the cabal immortal goes out and says do this.  

These are expectations driven and created by the goals of combat.  They happen because good intended people try to establish fair fights and their enemy just ignores them.  

They are worded the way they are because each is in effect the disadvantaged person creating the tag or gang situation despite the folks with numbers attempting to keep things on the level. 

If your character purposefully ignores them, amd ends up tagged because of it, don't complain. 

[Aulian]

I Agree to some of this.

However if you say: You must fight me and ignore everyone else. And I come across your cabal mate and I attack him. If you then attack me.. .Knowing this had happened. You're no better then you say in your rules

You can't FORCE someone to attack people all in a line. You can suggest this is their primary target but if you get attacked I wouldn't expect you to start a tagging wagon

[Kyzarius]

The problem is that this is a game of initiative. 

 

if two foes are in a field and one is declared your challenger while the other is standing aside, and you run past the first, he is going to chase you.  He is going to be all in, ready to go  in swinging.  You attacking the other person doesn't just stop him, hell sometimes they don't even know it occurred.  

Of course you aren't FORCED to do anything.  You can ignore who is declared your main target.  But when you break the rules of engagement be ready for the resulting unavoidable consequences.  

I see this a lot when one person is substantially weaker than the other.  Yet the stronger person is the chosen target.  The enemy tends to want to just attack the easier kill.  Well you better be ready for the person who is tasked with and trying to engage you to engage. 

Often times the "tag" is just one attack, and usually a common opener like charge.  And then the person who jumped in inadvertently tries to disengage, but this is usually to late regarding the "victim" complaining that they were somehow slighted.  When they created the confusion by disregarding who they were assigned to fight.  

[Aulian]

And you arem't forced to track them down and attack them?

If someone wants to attack the weaker foe... Does that mean your honor is reprieved because you said "bagsy".

You're joking right? If you run after someone and say ooo! I told you to fight me. Its your fault...

Then I have no words.

 

[Kyzarius]

You miss the point I think..

Player A and B have discussed and decided that player A is going to engage player E.

They have informed player E of this. 

Player A buffs, wields whatever they need, get ready to execute a strategy, then player E shows up!

Player E runs right past them...hes trying to escape, he might get an opener on me says player A.  Player E then runs up and SMACKS player B even though he knows Player A was prepped to fight him.  That player B was standing down to make it fair.  

It is player E's fault when player A charges in attacking him as Player E has chosen to break the rules of engagement.  The other two (A and B ) TRIED to help him, TRIED to make it a 1v1 fight, but E chose not to.  Often times player A will withdraw after the opener, sometimes they don't.  Sometimes A has already entered those commands.  Or didnt see the yell.  Or was trying to get them so fast they saw the yell but was so committed to the fight they charge in anyways.  

Either way it is not A and B's fault.  Usually player B flees and A continues pursuing.  Player E will often times then start ranting about how player A is in the wrong as he continues to try and chase player B.  but he is NOT.  Player E decided he didn't like the lot so he has jumped ship.  Created confusion, engaged purposefully the wrong enemy, and if he gets tagged then that is his problem. 

 

 

Ive done what E has done personally.  Ive actually ran in and slept player A, then slain player B then come back to A.  I have summoned player B and tried to 2 round them into the dirt.  

One time on Valadar I ran in, slept player A who said he would fight me, jumped to B, set my vamp pet on the A.  Fought B, taking a minute to kill him, when player A woke up he tried to charge, ran into my vamp pet, Slew B, jumped back to A, lag-locked him and won with my ass barely in one piece.  Promptly getting promoted heh.  

Point being I am not saying avoid doing just what you said, I am not saying stand in line.  I am saying if you do break rules of engagement expect and be ready to handle the consequence. 

[egreir]

12 minutes ago, Aulian said:

And you arem't forced to track them down and attack them?

If someone wants to attack the weaker foe... Does that mean your honor is reprieved because you said "bagsy".

You're joking right? If you run after someone and say ooo! I told you to fight me. Its your fault...

Then I have no words.

 

To me that is the sucky thing.  I've had it happen. And I have tracked them down and killed them and said your fault, you knew I was after you and yet you chose to attack someone else as well.

I enjoy this game the most when I PK someone.  If I am trying to PK you and you try to do something to prevent that, it makes me sad.

[Kyzarius]

a good example is a recent one too!

Look at the Viruthx vs Grakk with a dash of Brognort log.

Viruthx broke the rules of engagement purposefully.  Brognort engaged the elemental while Viruthx was fighting Grakk.

Grakk was on the illithid HARD.  Hungry for that avatar kill.  They had been fighting for a while!

Viruthx though engaged Brognort.  should GRakk have to then stop? hell no.  He probably didnt even know the fight with Brognort had happened until he saw him kneeling. 

Viruthx KNEW he was after him.  He even had to go back, while fighting Grakk at the same time, and secure the kill on Brognort. 

Grakk did NOTHING wrong, Viruthx doesn't get to just attack someone else and say hey...buddy, so sorry, our fights over I am fighting someone else. 

[Aulian]

1 hour ago, egreir said:

To me that is the sucky thing.  I've had it happen. And I have tracked them down and killed them and said your fault, you knew I was after you and yet you chose to attack someone else as well.

I enjoy this game the most when I PK someone.  If I am trying to PK you and you try to do something to prevent that, it makes me sad.

 

Inside and outside of a cabal are 100% completely different things. 

I was under the assumption that we were talking about designating 'cabal' hierarchy in who was attacking and defending. 

If no one is associated and you aren't in breach of your qrace/qclass restrictions then have at it. Aabahran is a dangerous place. If you want to run and hide, you better do so well

[Aulian]

1 hour ago, egreir said:

To me that is the sucky thing.  I've had it happen. And I have tracked them down and killed them and said your fault, you knew I was after you and yet you chose to attack someone else as well.

I enjoy this game the most when I PK someone.  If I am trying to PK you and you try to do something to prevent that, it makes me sad.

I have no qualms with this. Again. I was only talking about Cabal warfare if its in your RP and within any restrictions. Then tough cookies

[egreir]

I do like cookies

[Zavero]

So other players get to decide whom I would fight unless I want to fight both of you?

[Ithric]

I've been working on getting a sticky with a "pk policy" to outline what is and isn't kosher.  This would also include the dreaded topic of what is acceptable loot practices.  Personally I feel there is never a real reason to full loot.  Some people see looting as RP and I can't fathom the idea.  Forcing an enemy to delete isn't a win.  It damages the pbase.  There's ways to win without ruining your opponets play time. "Class"

[mya]

1.  If outnumbered, and you are told who your foe will be, yet assault someone else, do not be surprised when the before stated foe attacks you.  
Others don't decide who I will fight. I do. And specially my cabals enemies don't decide it for me. From my experience what happens is who engages first becomes the "correct/legal" pair.

2. If your enemy has your standard, and more than one defender is present, charging the altar will result in everyone pouncing you.
If I try to retrieve and both jump on me, I'm not going to be happy. Do it 2 or 3 times and they both go to my shit list.

3. If you defend your standard by sitting at the cabal guardian expect multiple foes to ride in and attempt to kill you and or the guardian.  This is especially true if you start engaging more than one enemy.  For Example if player A rides in attacking the guardian, and you attack them, then they flee.  Then player B rides in attacking the Guardian, and you attack them too, do not be surprised if both of them attack you the next time they ride in.  Best thing to do here is establish who you are going to fight and fight them. 
I can understand a Tag, but if they both actively try to engage me at the same time in a non accidental manner (because I have to be switching them regularly to prevent capture) then they go to the shit list.

4. If you kill one enemy and hang out trying to loot, you should be ready for the other to come in and attack you to get you off their buddies corpse.
True, but I mostly harass in this situation. Not go for the kill. I even let them heal if they are hurt and run away before going for the revenge.

5. If someone is chasing you, and you run up and attack someone else do not be surprised when the original aggressor attacks.
If you attack me out of the blue and then you give up or go fight someone else, expect me to jump you next time I find you. Even if has been 1 hour, as I was probably trying to find you or setting up some trap.

6. If you are fighting one cabal enemy in a 2v1 expect the other to attack your cabal.  If you then run back and attack them in defense do not be surprised if they fight back and your first enemy also continues to fight.
See 3.

7.  If you are at the disadvantage then the Best practice is to face your chosen enemy. They have numbers, they choose.  Face them, beat them, loot their weapons.  Then fight the other one or retrieve the standard and fight them.  
I don't understand this one, but if I'm at disadvantage I'm going for the weak one, unless they are to week to be any fun or I already defeated them enough times.

 

I don't like this rules, and will continue to use my own. That include:

- Do not loot unless they are an ass or they have something really really really shiny I need or they shouldn't have.

- If you are to week/inexperienced I will allow you to escape, leave you blind and sleeping in the middle of nowhere, or out of move in the middle of nowhere.

- If you are in my shit list and somehow consistently prove that you aren't an ass, you probably get out of it.

- If you are a top PKer and are pounding those bellow you belt left and right, then I will consider making something just to keep you Occupied, like an opposed cabal PC.

If you get on my shit list, you are subject to (depending how deep you sunk into it):
- Random annoying and fun stuff happening to you even across other characters. And I have a very vivid imagination for these things.
- Random telling of your location to your enemies.
- Looting even when I didn't kill you.
- Tagging you.
- Having my other characters jump you.
- Multikilling.
- Pit siting.
- Attacking you while you are engaged on another person on purpose. (I spam a lot, so this can happen unintentionally.)
- The creation of a hard counter character with the purpose of making your life hell. (Which usually ends with me forgetting about you and doing something other with it.)

[Kyzarius]

54 minutes ago, mya said:

 

2. If your enemy has your standard, and more than one defender is present, charging the altar will result in everyone pouncing you.
If I try to retrieve and both jump on me, I'm not going to be happy. Do it 2 or 3 times and they both go to my shit list.

3. If you defend your standard by sitting at the cabal guardian expect multiple foes to ride in and attempt to kill you and or the guardian.  This is especially true if you start engaging more than one enemy.  For Example if player A rides in attacking the guardian, and you attack them, then they flee.  Then player B rides in attacking the Guardian, and you attack them too, do not be surprised if both of them attack you the next time they ride in.  Best thing to do here is establish who you are going to fight and fight them. 
I can understand a Tag, but if they both actively try to engage me at the same time in a non accidental manner (because I have to be switching them regularly to prevent capture) then they go to the shit list.

 

these two are contradictory. 

So if its them defending, then oh they better not double team.

but if its you defending then hell, you better get to attack everyone you want without reprisal. 

 

Random annoying and fun stuff happening to you even across other characters.  so OOC reprisal... Mya really? 

[Anume]

Please keep in mind that the transfer of OOC grudges or knowledge from one char to another is against the rules and will be punished if we catch it.

[Manual Labour]

The moral of this thread is don't get on Mya's shit list.