2nd coder

[Rensvert]

Thoughts on having a second coder? @Immortals?

[Ulmusdorn]

Not against it. Not even close to my decision.

[Rensvert]

well the more support the better but yes the real immortal I was hoping to snag an opinion from was @Anume

and @Erelei

Nothing against the rest of the immortals though, as Id like your opinion on the matter as well.

[Rygothran]

"Hey immortals I want your opinion.... rather just the opinion of Anume and Erelei.... you can put something here too though!"

Nice...

[Rensvert]

lol well I want all of your opinions, but as Ulmusoadfn pointed out, its a bit above his pay grade. I am more than willing to take your opinion on the matter as well as @Azravik who has visited the post but not yet graced me with his opinion.

 

@Valek can keep his opinion to himself though.

[Imoutgoodbye]

Hey, I told you how coding offers were handled in the past.  But, yeah, you can have FL and Discord to yourself for a while.  I got other things to handle.  Don't text or call me for a while, okay?  😁

[Rensvert]

Oh yeah I wont call or text you, best not to leave a trail for our wives to find.

 

[egreir]

I have pitched an almost flawless idea in the past regarding this and it was shot down hard....so, good luck.  If I feel like it later I'll rehash my idea.

[egreir]

So basically Erelei and Anume and whoever they designate to become The Council gets formed.  They all keep doing what they are doing, if Erelei is the only coder right now so be it, whatever.

 

From there, they can elect certain trusted members who have some coding prowess to submit changes, suggestions, snippets, whatever.  Those get voted on by The Council and implemented if so chosen.

 

There is literally ZERO downside here. We could even have monthly polls from the players on what we'd like to see enhanced/changed/added.  The top ideas get voted on by the staff and then the coders can submit their ideas, assist with tasks given out by Erelei, whatever.

 

Nothing gets put into code without The Council's final approval, that's the beauty of it, there's no risk.  They get their own forum to have internal discussions, etc.  There is literally ZERO reason why people who can code and contribute to this game's forward progress not be allowed to give submissions. I've never understood why we restrict ourselves to 1 person who works a full time job and is married to be the sole contributor to the code of a game that is supposed to be influenced by its players. 

 

Anyway, yeah, good luck @Rensvert

[Rensvert]

Oh I feel like I messed up a bit, we were having a conversation on discord about a second coder and someone mentioned that we really should figure out the immortals opinions on the matter. And that's all this was an attempt to figure out. 

['tarako]

I like the idea of another person coding changes, but I don't think it would speed anything up. Essentially if coder B made something then Erelei would have to go over everything they coded both for accuracy, and legitimacy. We have had coders in the past that used their position as a cheating platform. So even though you are coding "twice as much" erelei still has to go over each line individually, and is still going to be one of the few people implementing. 

 

Also wasn't there a post by rygothran actively seeking snippet coders?

[Rensvert]

I have no idea if Rygo put a post up or not, was just trying to figure out the staffs feelings towards this in as non confrontational of a setting as I could manage. I know in the past snippets were used to code things but as it sits now, I think the few on discord who were actively engaging with the conversation were of the mind that we had 3 major steps that needed to be crossed before even needing to worry about E looking over code from someone else.  While no one asked for them they are as follows.

 

1. Figure out if those in charge are even open to a 2nd coder.

2. Find the second coder if #1 is yes

3. Get second coder up to date on the code.

 

This is not a small undertaking at all. But I believe a 2nd coder wouldnt hurt or slow down anything, as worst case a person learns the base and can do things moving forward in conjunction with E. Best case we get someone who goes crazy with new stuff and the staff can then decide what they like or dont like. As was mentioned several times in the past, people actively look for solutions to problems that require minimal coding and have said so because they realize E is a busy man. Having someone else who can code things might not change anything at all, but if it means players can recommend and suggest ideas without the worry of "code time" I dont really see how it could be a negative.

[egreir]

I think the underlying problem has always been having access to the source.  Making any significant coding changes would very often require access to the source code for referencing and making calls, etc. (im acting like I know wtf Im talking about)

 

[Rensvert]

sounds a lot like a problem that Git fixes quite nicely with different branches and a master

I just think with all the improvements made to allowing multiple coders to work on the same project, that is basically industry standard in development. I sometimes wonder why this game codes like its in the stone age. Again, I am not saying that the staff should switch its game plan on any of this. Just with the player base having more than one person who codes for a living, we only have a single coder. 

Seems like maybe a better question instead of asking what the staff's thoughts on a 2nd coder is. I should ask Why we only have 1?

[Lloth]

Erelei has posted this topic before, saying he would accept applications for snippet coders. I don't know if that's still a thing or not. Would not have access to the whole game code, but would be given snippets to revise and on some cases build up.

 

Personally, I find it very unlikely that we would have a second coder with full access. Best case scenario they don't run off with the code and build a competing game with broken mechanics and start poaching players from us (which happened in the past several times). While the build team can function with many contributors (and currently has non-immortals among them), coding is not so open. Worst case for builders is that an area gets scrapped and that time is lost. Worst case for coders is a broken or stolen game. Much different scale.

[Azravik]

Off the hip answer to that question is simple @Rensvert. Most players here do not show the propensity for long term dedication to one idea. Examples being deleted chars because players do not get what they want, and then there are players who post bugs when the bug may be an issue for them but exploit other bugs and never say a word. Why do we have only one? Because quality is greater than quantity. Also I agree with @Lloth above.

[Rensvert]

I think the worry of someone running off with the code and making their own mud is kind of a silly argument. Is it a concern sure I guess, but lets be honest and open. Virigoth already put his code open to all to see, and can easily have a "basic" version of FL. Sure it doesnt have the additions that have been added since but you could have a "base" version of FL up and running with very little effort. 

While sure the risk is there I think its a rather low one, as for a broken game I am not saying that they can push to live at all. At least not at the start by any imagination. That's what different branches are for, let E go over it and push it what the staff thinks are good changes and additions, the rest can stay scrapped. The downside to just having snippet coders though is they are never getting any kind of ability to create. The biggest bonus of having a 2nd coder in my mind would be their ability to make new things. A new class, a new race etc. Sure it might never see the light of day, but it could get the staff talking and discussing about it. 

If the simple problem is "we dont have anyone who is willing to stick with it long enough to be worth something" then that's a different situation completely. And it sucks but thats not an unwillingness to have a 2nd coder so much as we just dont have anyone who wants the job. 

Again this just branched off of a discord discussion and I think brought up some good points. Not attempting to attack the staff in anyway with my comments, more just attempting to do some digging about the subject in the open.

[Lloth]

The version Virigoth put out is nowhere near accurate anymore. As far as I'm told, it wasn't even accurate when he released it publicly. You'd be surprised how few people even have it. Made the mistake once of mentioning I had a copy because it was a fun way to learn to code. My pms were never so full of unread messages until then. And again, it has happened to us before, the last time we gave a non-immortal access to the code. 

 

To be realistic, having a second volunteer coder wouldn't give much in creation, either. The actual coding of a new class/race/skill/spell is not the time consuming part there. It's the vetting of concepts, balance, and thematics. Sure, we may make missteps in those areas still, but another coder wouldn't help that. There is still staff heirarchy. Just like the build team can't just spin up new areas and get them implemented, a new coder wouldn't just be putting in new things. 

 

Snippet coding may seem boring or beneath you (not specifically you, but to the hypothetical coders), but it is honestly the best way to help. Bug fixes take the most time and energy. Patching those with snippet coding is the priority, and it's actually the best way to make sure new things can get created. Less time spent bug fixing means more time spent designing.

[Rensvert]

I tried writing this out a few times but it kept coming off like a dick so I'll just say this. 

Virigoths code isnt that difficult to find, I found it in a few minutes of searching. Sure it's not up to date but it is a passable version of the game. 

As for a new coder adding things into the game I dont think anyone was under the impression that would be the case, I certainly wasnt at least. Of course the majority of their time would be fixing bugs and making small tweaks, but having that second person may not speed anything up if the red tape is what's holding everything back, but it certainly wouldnt slow anything down. 

One last thing I wasnt suggesting that the new coder be an immortal, I actually think that would be a bad idea. Having a coder who is a player first and coder second might give a nice set of fresh eyes to the game. While not forcing them to worry about the other duties that immortals have. And if nothing else, having two people fixing bugs and updating classes or making new ones could end up being super helpful to the game as a whole.

['tarako]

I mean wasn't FL founded off pirated code? It is a valid worry.

[English lad]

2 hours ago, 'tarako said:

I mean wasn't FL founded off pirated code? It is a valid worry.

Yeah Crypt grabbed it from AR.  It was a point of contention between him and Viri because he told Viri he had permission to use it.

[Mali]

We don't really have an issue with coding, we have an issue with player's perception of an organizational structure in FL that is different than the reality of the organizational structure.

This isn't a democracy and it isn't the FL you started on. This is a game branded as FL with admin control over the FL domain run by folks who pay for it and keep it up free to play because they have a passion for it. I think it is good to understand this and be thankful that it is still up and running.

But in general if the staff want coding, building, or consultation, they will ask for it.

Try calling any other business out of the yellow pages and offer to help them run things and see how that goes. I'd expect about the same here.

If you want to chase something different you can host a mud with whatever code you can find and create. 

[Rensvert]

Man Mali that seems a bit hostile for a thread that I assumed was dead. I don't think I or anyone in this thread "called out" the immortals nor do I think anyone actually offered to help at all with coding. Unless someone did and I am mistaken of course. 

However just a simple thought though, saying that the staff is not open to suggestions and that if they want any they will ask for it is a bit off in my experience. From what I gathered in this thread and from what other staff and players have told to me by reaching out to me, it seems like they are always willing to get help if the person in question offers and follows through with their offer. I know that at least one or two people have reached out in the somewhat recent past and have or are working on building stuff, so to say that the staff will ask for the help they want is at least in the not so distant past wrong. 

 

Also I might have missed it somewhere, but FL is not a business, they don't make any money, don't sell anything and don't pay the staff. Its not a business in even the slightest sense of the term.

[Mali]

No intention to be hostile to you. It is my perception of the way things are. I'm happy the game is up and running so we can visit from time to time. I did notice that the two individuals you wanted to respond did not do so. 

I encourage you to continue to want more from FL. My experience is that this is a closed admin culture and that the folks with control of code and server intend to keep it that way. For better or worse, but mostly somewhere in between. 

[Rensvert]

The two individuals wanted their opinions on the matter private. So no they did not respond here.  I also only made this as kind of the odd man out in discord as many players and staff there all thought it was a good idea. 

As for what I want from FL well I recently deleted all my guys so I dont really want anything at the moment. Was just interested in information gathering is all.