Equipment Comparison - New player's perspective

[Grommash]

I have limited experience (30 to 50 hours each) playing a melee class and a caster class.

I understand they have significantly different gear requirements/preferences so I felt the need to figure out a weighting system to measure/compare them.

As a benchmark, I assumed the weights from this post on item rebalancing.

Let me think outloud, and you guys can correct me where I go astray.

Taking a birdseye perspective, lets say semi geared 50 caster would have -400 AC from gear, -40 combines saves (20 svs, 20 each save).

Similarly, a semi geared 50 melee would have -200 AC from gear, -20 combined saves (10 svs and 10 each save), and 40 HR&DR.

These are just numbers I am throwing out with only half a dozen hours at level cap getting some (basic but appropriate) gear.

How much budget do we need for -400 AC? 40 points. Fair enough, lets use this as benchmark

How much more do we need to gear our caster with saves? 20 svs = 50 points, 20 each of the others lets round it to another 50.

Caster gear budget for basic stats is 140 points, lets say (then you add skills, managain, HP/Mn/Mv/etc)

Now the same exercise for a melee...

How much budget do we need for 40 HR&DR? 40 points each, so 80 points. 

How much more do we need to gear our melee with saves? 10 svs = 25 points, 10 each of the others lets round it to another 25.

Adds up to 130. This is pretty balanced compared to the caster's 140, so all fine and dandy. Good work! Whoever came up with this system did a dark good job.

Little comment: svs should cost 2 (not 2.5) if save VS one is 0.75 (triple is 2.25) since specific gearing for a particular thing should be a little more expensive than generic gearing, IMHO.

 

 

Now my questions:

- Can I use these weights to help me decide (within reason) what item is better for my character? I mean... is it wise to do so?

- Does this mean the socket will add these two procs to my weapon? "Adds following to weapon flags: sharp shocking"?

- is there (quantitative) information about proc damage dice? like prost being Leve d 3 for example?

- is there (quantitative) information about the effects of skills over 100 on chances to shield block, bash, parry, etc?

- All weapons that have a proc, have the same fixed proc chance or proc chance is also an attribute that will vary from weapon to weapon?

Its OK if half of these are not meant to be mortal's knowledge. I am just trying to bridge the experience knowledge/experience gap. *grin*

Thank you

 

 

(edited for typos)

[Kassieti]

2 hours ago, Grommash said:

Now my questions:

- Can I use these weights to help me decide (within reason) what item is better for my character? I mean... is it wise to do so?

- Does this mean the socket will add these two procs to my weapon? "Adds following to weapon flags: sharp shocking"?

- is there (quantitative) information about proc damage dice? like prost being Leve d 3 for example?

- is there (quantitative) information about the effects of skills over 100 on chances to shield block, bash, parry, etc?

- All weapons that have a proc, have the same fixed proc chance or proc chance is also an attribute that will vary from weapon to weapon?

Its OK if half of these are not meant to be mortal's knowledge. I am just trying to bridge the experience knowledge/experience gap. *grin*

Thank you

1) Yes, you can, though people tend to see what they're lacking and look for pieces that shore up those holes.  In the end, it amounts to the same thing.
2) Yes.
3) There isn't anything available yet, but I do want to get that published.  Generally speaking it's ItemLevel/3+5, or within that ballpark, depending on what's actually procing.  Save depending on item level.
4) Rare are the skills/spells that do anything extra over 100% proficiency.  Usually it's just increased change to work.  For example, many skills like bash will set your base chance to succeed at 80% of prof.  So having 100% starts you off at 80% while 105% starts you at 84.  Sear and Meteor Swarm are among the exceptions to do something extra by allowing you to cast indoors if your prof is over 100%.  They're also the vast majority of the list.
5) If my memory serves, the higher the weapon level the greater the chance to proc things like flaming and frost.

Knowledge of this nature should, in my opinion, never be hidden.  Spoilered maybe, as people do like to find some things out for themselves, but should be available otherise.

[Grommash]

3 hours ago, Kassieti said:

3) There isn't anything available yet, but I do want to get that published.  Generally speaking it's ItemLevel/3+5, or within that ballpark, depending on what's actually procing.  Save depending on item level.

So for the time being, can I generally assume that for two items of similar itemLevel, the relative power between them is matched by their weigh/cost on the original post?

Quote

paralyze = +2 points
flaming = +1.5 points
vampiric = +1.5 points
poison = +1.5 points
sharp = +1 point
vorpal = +1 point
deadly = +1 point
wounds = +1 point
shocking = +0.5 points
frost = +0.5 points

 

[Kassieti]

Right.  It's not so much the damage they do (which is all roughly the same), but the secondary effects.  Paralyze adds lag to everything you do for a number of commands.  Flaming blinds you for a short duration which you cannot cure.  Vampiric heals the wielder a little.  Poison poisons (damage over time [DoT] and cuts regen).  Sharp is just the additional damage.  Vorpal causes you to glow (faerie fire: can't hide, go invisible, etc).  Deadly adds a DoT.  Wounds causes you damage every time you move rooms.  Shocking causes 1 round of lag.  Frost works like chill touch giving a debuff of like -2 to STR.

So you can see why paralyze and flaming for example, are considered more powerful than shocking and frost.

[Lexi]

If you want some sort of ballpark, here's one invoker and one warrior I played during last year, both fairly well equipped but not really fully decked in super endgame uniques etc:

/-----------------\/------------------------------------------------\
| Rilenna         || Blademaster of GLADIATOR                       |
\-----------------/\------------------------------------------------/
| Str: 19(19)     || Level 50 Sex F          Age   37(234h)         |
| Int: 20(20)     || Class warrior           Size  medium           |
| Wis: 21(21)     || Race  half-drow         Align chaotic neutral  |
| Dex: 23(23)^2   || Hp     885/1255  (110%) Exp   37260/473340     |
| Con: 18(19)^1   || Mana   633/633   (100%) +Hit  42 (78%)         |
\ Lck: [||||||]   \/ Move   472/472   (100%) +Dam  43               /
/-----------------/\--------------------/\--------------------------\
|     ARMOR       ||      SAVES         || Deity  Tongar            |
| Slash  -411     || Spell       -28    || Faith  Combat            |
| Pierce -393     || Afflictive  -24    || Weight 335/350           |
| Blunt  -418     || Maledictive -23    || Items  34/44             |
| Magic  -398     || Mental      -14    || Prac   4      Train 0    |
|                 || Breath       0     || RP     57                |
|                 ||                    || Gold   12K    CP 3.1K    |
\-----------------\/--------------------\/--------------------------/
/ You have a few cuts and bruises.                                  \
| You are ready for a cabal promotion.                              |
\-------------------------------------------------------------------/

 

/-----------------\/------------------------------------------------\
| Thilyssia       || Warder of WARDER                               |
\-----------------/\------------------------------------------------/
| Str: 19(19)     || Level 50 Sex F          Age   30(134h)         |
| Int: 20(20)^1   || Class invoker           Size  medium           |
| Wis: 21(21)     || Race  H-Fey(half-drow)  Align chaotic neutral  |
| Dex: 23(23)^2   || Hp    1433/1433  (117%) Exp   33993/513607     |
| Con: 19(19)^3   || Mana  1472/1472  (120%) +Hit  1 (100%)         |
\ Lck: [||||--]   \/ Move   500/500   (130%) +Dam  6                /
/-----------------/\--------------------/\--------------------------\
|     ARMOR       ||      SAVES         || Deity  Ulmusdorn         |
| Slash  -396     || Spell       -20    || Faith  Nature            |
| Pierce -408     || Afflictive   0     || Weight 293/350           |
| Blunt  -405     || Maledictive -20    || Items  35/44             |
| Magic  -430     || Mental      -22    || Prac   9      Train 0    |
|                 || Breath      -10    || RP     48                |
|                 ||                    || Gold   114K   CP 4.1K    |
\-----------------\/--------------------\/--------------------------/
/ You are in the prime of your health.                              \
| You are ready for a cabal promotion.                              |
\-------------------------------------------------------------------/

 

What you're not considering in your initial post is a caster getting from eq is +hp/mana to quite a significant degree. Anyway. If you're a big strength warrior instead of a dex warrior, you'll have a bit more hit/dam than what's on my sheet (also I'm not using all my stat boosting skills in that particular score sheet, couldn't find any where I had them up).

Also I'd say some builds will have plenty more ac than what I had going.

EDIT:
Another thing to consider is the current opposition/powerful characters in the game. If I was fighting shamans or dark-knights constantly my invoker would have swapped a few pieces for select extra mal saves (some items have -a lot- in one svs type etc), if I was fighting a psi or cleric I'd probably have gotten more mentals etc.

[Grommash]

@Lexi those two stat screens helped a lot, for benchmarking purposes.

As I see it, there are standard, contextual and personal gear options. For now, I am focusing on understanding the standard options, to build a knowledge base, so I can make better decisions about the contextual and personal options down the road.

Yesterday I came to an interesting dilemma, let me share it with you.

Crustacean ring with all its -AC, or Lord Commander's signet with its generous -svs.

This was more or less my thought process:

Points wise, the Crustacean was standard 6 points. 20 HP = 2 points, -40 AC = 4 points.

On the other side, the Signet is 1.5 points from its little HP and mana, plus 7.5 from the -3 svs, adds to standard points 9, if I ignore the -DEX and -DR on the signet.

So I went with the signet.

I understand there will be contextual decisions to make down the road. But I felt the need to have a framework to compare the items to begin with.

My main survivability concerns are being dispelled out of my 10+ buffs, and blasphemy. This means svs, Mal and Affl are priority concerns. That said..... half of the opponents (either in PvE or PvP does neither, so I cant go full-out on saves and neglect the rest.

[Kassieti]

While saves vs spell is a catch-all, I don't like them in general.  IMO, they should have been used for spells and spells alone.  I digress.

Blasphemy is a malediction and dispel is mental, both should be displayed in the appropriate help file, and should help you on which saves you get.

Something else to think about, there's only like 2 classes that can cast blasphemy directly (shamans and vampires), and evil clerics could put it on you incidentally.  And some cleric mobs.
Likewise with dispel, if you're not in PvP, only some caster mobs will hit you with it.

[Archbishop Monk]

On 4/4/2024 at 11:26 AM, Kassieti said:

While saves vs spell is a catch-all, I don't like them in general.  IMO, they should have been used for spells and spells alone.  I digress.

Blasphemy is a malediction and dispel is mental, both should be displayed in the appropriate help file, and should help you on which saves you get.

Something else to think about, there's only like 2 classes that can cast blasphemy directly (shamans and vampires), and evil clerics could put it on you incidentally.  And some cleric mobs.
Likewise with dispel, if you're not in PvP, only some caster mobs will hit you with it.

I agree with this nearly wholeheartedly.  In PvE, saves have a limited use (end-game zones aside where everything seems to wish to poison/plague you).  Also, something to consider, you can have multiple backpacks and keep non-rare replacements for when you need saves.  I often do this on my characters so that they can focus on what they need more running around normally.