Integrated Paths 3.0 (Berserker Example)

If you remember my tiered skills system proposal from a bit ago, then this will look familiar. The original proposal is here: http://forum.theforsakenlands.org/showthread.php?t=15188 and the second version is here: http://forum.theforsakenlands.org/showthread.php?t=15999

The first version had a lot of positive responses. However, it seemed to fizzle into obscurity and was forgotten. The second version was plagued by a lot of misunderstandings.

So, I've decided to clean it up AGAIN, answer a few more questions, and repropose it with high hopes for a lot more responses, serious consideration, and insightful comments either way.

Please do not derail this thread. It represents a lot of work on my part and I want it to be taken seriously. Again, please do not derail this thread to be funny.

The situation now:

We have three standard classes with choosable paths (ranger, warrior, and berserker). A path is a selection that predetermines the availability of future skills. Anger-->Skull crusher and Staff Mastery-->Backcutter, for example.

We have six classes with selectable skills (thief, blademaster, warrior, berserker, ranger, and ninja). A selectable skill is a skill that can be chosen at a certain level that does NOT predetermine the availability of future skills. Weapon expertises, ninjitsu, blademaster stances, and traps are all examples of this.

The problems:

First, not all classes are customizable. Why does a ranger have more options available than an invoker?

Classes and races were designed independently. The class serves as the core of the character, with the race acting as a modifying layer. They have not been designed to work together.

Race is not well developed in most classes. Human, werebeast, and ogre berserkers all swing their weapons the same, bodyslam the same, headbutt the same, and use shields the same. Race is generally only used for alignment, stat, and cosmetic reasons (with a few exceptions). This creates a system where there are some obviously superior race picks for each class. While an elf ranger is an interesting pick in many other systems, in the FL world it is inferior in almost every way to other ranger choices (stat, alignment, and skill bonuses - outside of 'mindflayer elves'). In short, classes and races were never well-integrated together.

Lack of a real connection between RP and PK. If I want to RP a crazy, axe-slinging dwarf, I must make a dwarf berserker and emote my 'RP'. My swinging or axe skills are not represented in the code at all and I function just like every other berserker. This same problem lies in restrings for races. The real problem in this is actually PK balance.

Inflexibility. It is extremely difficult to introduce a new class (or even a race) without imbalancing all of the others. This makes change on FL very slow and difficult.

Another problem lies in replayability. In most cases, classes operate exactly the same way every time I play them. If I play two faerie invokers, or even a faerie invoker and then an elf invoker, I will not have a significantly different gameplay experience (barring RP experiences). Replayability in FL is mostly limited to playing different classes, align differences, and cabal selections. Again, race and class are not adequately customizable to generate a new character using the same base template.

The problem of predictability arises in PK situations. I know how a berserker will operate, therefore I can predict nearly any possible tactical action they might take. If I see a berserker, I immediately know all of her strengths and weaknesses. This is because all berserkers are built from three only paths, which affect only two skills each (rage and the rage focus skill). Consistency in the class is a very good thing. However, as it stands now, it is to the point of sameness.

Skill balance. We have some very useful skills and spells (critical strike and path of deceit) and some skills and spells that are generally considered a waste (detect good, kick, ikuzachi). I believe that every skill/spell can be made useful in some way.

Inter-class skill balance. A thief, warrior, and necromancer all parry with the same amount of skill. An invoker is just as proficient with a dagger as a ninja is.

Equipment balance. Those who are well-equipped enjoy a massive (if not altogether decisive) advantage over those who are not. The problem lies in balancing the equipment to all the classes. The goal is to make equipment useful and worthwhile without overshadowing player skill.

The solution:

Very shortly: to integrate the path and selectable skill systems and then apply it to all skills/spells.

How does will this work? First we need to change all the skills/spells into paths. For example let's take the dodge skill:

dodge

Next we break it into three or four tiers (the path). As my skill in dodge increases (due to race/class/selectable choices) I will progress along this basic path:

[B]basic dodge[/B]
--advanced dodge
--expert dodge
--master dodge

Then we give each tier, except the first (which is the basic skill as it is now), a stackable, cumulative bonus:

[B]basic dodge[/B]
--advanced dodge (+10 lag avoidance)
--expert dodge (50% chance to dodge thrown objects (cards/shurikens/etc))
--master dodge (25% to avoid all opening strikes)

Next, we need to incorporate the selection half:

First, we have a list of automatic selections based on your class. For example, all berserkers heal quickly. Therefore, a berserker doesn't need to spend a selection (the player only gets give selections, the rest are determined by race and class) to upgrade her fast healing to regeneration---it is free, given as a perk. The number of automatic class selections will vary depending on the class. In my example, the berserker gets 13 free perks (automatically given as she ranks up).

[B]Zerk base (13):[/B] 
+1 axe/mace/flail/polearm/spear/sword/hand to hand/two handed/shield block/fast healing/enhanced damage
+2 attack

Next, we have racial perks. These are automatic selections that depend solely on your race. Each race will have three of these automatic 'selections' for each class, called racial perks. A storm giant berserker and warrior will get different racial perks. This is ensures that all choices are useful and do not overlap (a warrior getting a wasted bonus to bodyslam for example).

Storm giant berserker - warcry, enhanced damage, and bodyslam.
Storm giant warrior - charge, enhanced damage, and bash.

'Weaker' racial selections can be given bonuses to staple/useful skills to make their race more worthwhile. This is a very useful tool for easily balancing race/class combinations and for giving each race a different feel. For example:

[B]Berserker race perks (3):[/B]
human +1 trip/relax/parry
storm +1 warcry/enhanced damage/bodyslam
stone +1 swing/enhanced damage/bodyslam
fire +1 mace/enhanced damage/bodyslam
werebeast +1 haymaker/dirt kick/dual wield
ogre +1 roar/fast healing/weapon cleave
dwarf +1 shield cleave/berserk/shield block
duergar +1 double grip/headbutt/two handed
minotaur +1 charge/rage/axe

Next, the existing class path system can be converted into selectable options, thus preserving the old system:

[B]Rage focus (one selection possible):[/B]
anger +1 haymaker
fury +1 two handed
devastation +1 enhanced damage

Weapon expertises simply translate as a selectable skill that can only be applied to weapons.

With the class and racial perks defined, we can now go into the true selectable skills. The player will be able to select a total of five selections to upgrade. She may choose to upgrade five different skills by one tier or to upgrade one or two skills fully. This is the true customizability of this idea. One choice is given every ten levels.

Five skills gives the player enough room to 'flesh out' a character design, without being too many as to make balance a nightmare. Moreover it is not enough to break from the base 'feel' of the class. With three predetermined racial perks and five selectable perks, a berserker will still play and have the same basic style as a berserker does now, only with a lot more customizable flair. It opens up the tactical and strategic options without completely revamping the balance.

Balance:

Now that we have the paths and selectables integrated and combined with races, we must balance it. To do this, we first put a cap on skills based on their class.

A warrior can upgrade her weapons to master but an invoker may not be able to reach even the advanced level. A dark-knight or other hybrid will be capped in middle ranges for a large number of skills. This will rebalance our current system a bit.

For example, it will give the potential to berserkers (dedicated melees) to be better at melee (can raise melee skills higher) than rangers (melee/rogue hybrid), assuming that the berserker actually chooses to develop those skills.

Again, it depends on how the build goes. A ranger may be better at melee if she spends all of her selections solely on melee and the berserker spends her selections on things like headbutt...this is the beauty of the system. In the end though, the berserker has the class build advantage.

This system will never give a skill to a class that the class does not already have.

The benefits:

Classes are customizable. I can flesh out my character concept within the constrains of a class. I have the same skillset as my base class, with different focuses within that skillset. This addresses the two problems described earlier, replayability and predictability.

No new skills. This system doesn't require the coding or design of any new skills. It uses what is already available. That would make it easy to code, easy to understand, and vastly raises the quality of our existing system (instead of just dumping new features/skills). Moreover, no skills are used from other classes. A warrior will never learn how to rage and a berserker will never be able to upgrade to the 'master' level to obtain warrior lores. Finally, it does not change our leveling system at all.

Easy to implement. Most of the work is in the design phase. Because it uses no new code and the already available skill selection feature, the coding required to do this would be very light compared to other changes of this magnitude. This would be much easier to code for all classes than a code new class. It could even be implemented to existing characters, since it doesn't add or remove any skills.

Skill Balance. Like mentioned above, there are many skills/spells that are not very useful in the game. This system makes that very easy to change and develop.

For example, let's look at detect good. A fairly worthless spell as it stands now. Let's see what we can develop it into:

basic detect good/evil
advanced detect good/evil - can sense when a good/evil char enters and leaves a room
master detect good/evil - can see hidden/invisible/camoed characters in the same room but not on where

Now it has a specialized use. Some people might actually find that very useful, giving meaning to a worthless spell.

Nearly limitless PK/RP options. In this system, if I want to make that crazy dwarf who jumps in swinging like a maniac with his axes, I can do that. My character concept will be reflected in the code and play style of my berserker, not just in the random emotes I fling around. He really will be good with axes, dual wield, berserk, and will swing at all enemies. I can actually flesh out my concept instead of just pretending he is like that. This is getting into the code-backed RP advanced ideas I had earlier, with meaningful PK balance being addressed too. A very win-win change, for both RP and PK. I no longer am fighting the same berserker with just a different name. There is more thought for tactics in the game and the game is able to accommodate more kinds of playing styles along with massively increased RP possibilities. The system has the same effect as designing a full range (hundreds) of sub-paths for each class. This makes it very efficient.

PK balance. Classes, races, and class/race combinations become much easier to fine tune. Instead of completely reworking a skill, I can make smaller, subtle modifications at each tier. Instead of a change that balances a strong race and gimps a weaker race, I can focus that change to only that single race. I can easily rework the balance of a race/class combination independently. (ex. I can strengthen elf rangers without strengthening elf invokers/ninja). PK balance would be vastly simplified.

Equipment balance. This system has the potential to 'fix' our equipment problems. It does this in two ways. First, the tendency to specialize would also cause specialization in equipment (to either promote that specialization or to cover a weakness due to it). That means people will seek out different rares. Secondly, melees and casters alike would gain much of their power from their skill choices, not their equipment. Very high-end equipment becomes less valuable and easy to tone to accommodate the increased power of skills. On the other end, a melee in weak equipment still has some skill options available to fall back on, even when facing 'god suits'. However, it does not make equipment worthless or a non-concern by any means. Bonuses do stack and still make a large difference.

Uniqueness. As far as I know, no other game (MUD) uses this kind of system. This is an original idea tailored to FL. I didn't copy this from any other game (although it may very well exist). This would be a huge draw to new players as a wonderful advertising point. Increased options in PK tactics and RP development (my RP is finally real) retains player. This would be something that really separates us from other MUDs in our class.

Details:

Now that I've told you of the benefits, let's see this system in action.

The following class example may or may not be well balanced. The details of the benefits of each tier need to be considered against future designs of other the skills of all other classes and subsequently rebalanced.

Please don't worry about the class balance at this point. Please consider the system as a whole, not whether or not the particulars are balanced at this point.

For example, an extremely defensive dwarf berserker build (who spent his five choices in defenses) might end up as follows:

[B][U]Advanced skills:[/U][/B]
axe
mace
flail
polearm
spear
sword
hand to hand
two handed
fast healing
enhanced damage
haymaker
shield cleave
berserk
[B][U]Expert Skills:[/U][/B]
attack
[B][U]Master skills:[/U][/B]
parry (4 selectables)
shield block (race + class + 1 selectable)

But what does master level parry do exactly? Here is a list of some possible bonuses for each tier. Please remember that they do stack:

[B][U]*Detailed example selectable choices for berserker skills *These are the full tiers, a berserker cannot gain warrior lores or mediation for example:[/U][/B]
[B]basic axe[/B]
--advanced axe (+2 avg damage)
--expert axe (+50% damage on first successful normal strike)
--master axe (halves target's ac for hit/dam calculation)
[B]basic dagger[/B]
--advanced dagger (add wound flag to weapon)
--expert dagger (dual parry bonus)
--master dagger (doublesheath/+3% dual parry)
[B]basic flail[/B]
--advanced flail (+3 hitroll/+5 damroll)
--expert flail (+1% second/third/fourth attack)
--master flail (mantis maul)
[B]basic mace[/B]
--advanced mace (+8 damroll)
--expert mace (+2 avg damage/+3 damroll)
--master mace (focused bash)
[B]basic polearm[/B]
--advanced polearm (+1% two handed/+1% parry)
--expert polearm (+20% charge round damage)
--master polearm (+1% two handed/+1% parry/+1% polearm)
[B]basic spear[/B]
--advanced spear (-40 AC/+3 hitroll/+2 damroll)
--expert spear (add sharp flag to weapon)
--master spear (backcutter)
[B]basic sword[/B]
--advanced sword (+3 hitroll/+3 damroll/-30 AC)
--expert sword (add sharp flag to weapon)
--master sword (feign)
[B]basic staff[/B]
--advanced staff (+1% staff)
--expert staff (-40 AC/+1% staff)
--master staff (+2%staff)
[B]basic hand to hand[/B]
--advanced hand to hand (chance of a lagging strike/+1 avg damage)
--expert hand to hand (allows parry/dual parry with hand to hand/+2 avg damage)
--master hand to hand (allows pugil with hand to hand/+3 avg damage)
[B]basic exotic[/B]
--advanced exotic (+5% disarm/offhand disarm/shield disarm/+2 hitroll)
--expert exotic (+2 hitroll/+1 avg damage/+2 luck/-25 AC)
--master exotic (weapon seize)
[B]basic two handed[/B]
--advanced two handed (+5 hitroll/+5 damroll)
--expert two handed (swing with two-handed weapons (if already swinging, +1 attack))
--master two handed (+3% two handed/+1 avg dam)
[B]basic shield block[/B]
--advanced shield block (can block arrows)
--expert shield block (shield block causes riposte damage)
--master shield block (auto shield bash)
[B]basic parry[/B]
--advanced parry (+2% parry)
--expert parry (+3% parry)
--master parry (parry causes riposte damage)
[B]basic dodge[/B]
--advanced dodge (+10 lag avoidance)
--expert dodge (50% chance to dodge thrown objects (cards/shurikens/etc))
--master dodge (25% to avoid all opening strikes)
[B]basic rage[/B]
--advanced rage (+25% rage hp bonus)
--master rage (dodge restored by 50%)
[B]basic enhanced damage[/B]
--advanced enhanced damage (+5 damroll)
--expert enhanced damage (+2 avg damage)
--master enhanced damage (+2 avg damage/+5 damroll)
[B]basic fast healing[/B]
--advanced fast healing (regeneration)
--master fast healing (halves duration of poison/plague/enfeeblement)
[B]basic meditation[/B]
--advanced meditation (trance)
--master meditation (resist charm spells)
[B]basic attack[/B]
--advanced attack (second attack)
--expert attack (third attack)
--master attack (fourth attack)
[B]basic dual wield[/B]
--advanced dual wield (may choose to strike with only primary or offhand)
--master dual wield (may dual wield objects of same weight)
[B]basic charge[/B]
--advanced charge (may charge and attack (like minotaurs))
--master charge (may charge in combat to push an enemy into another room)
[B]basic trip[/B]
--advanced trip (trip causes moderate damage)
--master trip (+1 enemy size when calculating lag duration)
[B]basic bodyslam[/B]
--advanced bodyslam (bodyslam may cause the thunderclap effect)
--master bodyslam (+3% bodyslam)
[B]basic berserk[/B]
--advanced berserk (no ac/moves penalty)
--master berserk (+5 hitroll/+5 damroll/+100 hp)
[B]basic warcry[/B]
--advanced warcry (+5 hitroll/-5 svs. vs. spell)
--master warcry (+5 hitroll/+5 damroll/warcry affects groupmembers)
[B]basic lore[/B]
--advanced lore (can see extra flags (hitroll/damroll/etc))
--master lore (as identify spell)
[B]basic weapon cleave[/B]
--advanced weapon cleave (may cleave offhand weapons)
--master weapon cleave (adds burnproof flag to weapon)
[B]basic shield cleave[/B]
--advanced shield cleave (causes major damage on success)
--expert shield cleave (negates burnproof shieldblock for one tick) 
[B]basic relax[/B]
--advanced relax (may relax from path of fury)
--master relax (may relax from path of devastation)
[B]basic double grip[/B]
--advanced double grip (+3% two handed)
--master double grip (powergrip)
[B]basic haymaker[/B]
--advanced haymaker (skull crusher)
--master haymaker (haymaker causes thunderclap/+25% protective shield penetration chance)
[B]basic headbutt[/B]
--advanced headbutt (causes thunderclap effect)
--master headbutt (ignores protective shield)
[B]basic haggle[/B]
--advanced haggle (haggles twice and takes the best result)
--master haggle (ignore bank/locker fees)
[B]basic swing[/B]
--advanced swing (can swing out of rage)
--master swing (all attacks swing (bash/haymaker/charge/etc)*(can enable/disable at will))

We can display this on our skill sheets as follows, with the berserker skills added in:

[B][U]Example skill sheet for a berserker:[/U][/B]
Level 1: basic axe n/a basic dagger n/a 
 basic flail n/a basic mace n/a 
 basic polearm n/a basic shield block n/a 
 basic spear n/a basic sword n/a 
 basic enhanced damage n/a basic hand to hand n/a 
 recall n/a basic staff n/a 
 basic two handed n/a 
Level 5: basic parry n/a 
Level 6: basic fast healing n/a basic rage n/a 
Level 7: [B]advanced attack n/a[/B] 
Level 8: basic dirt kicking n/a 
Level 10: basic relax n/a basic swing n/a advanced axe n/a [B] [selectable] [ n/a] [/B]
Level 12: [B]advanced flail n/a[/B]
Level 13: basic charge n/a 
Level 14: [B]advanced polearm n/a[/B]
Level 15: basic trip n/a basic bodyslam n/a [B][race perk] [ n/a] 
Level 16: basic berserk n/a basic haggle n/a [B]advanced mace n/a [/B] 
Level 17: basic dual wield n/a basic roar n/a 
Level 18: basic meditation n/a [B]advanced spear n/a[/B]
Level 19: [B]expert attack n/a[/B] 
Level 20: basic warcry n/a [B]advanced sword n/a [/B] [B][selectable] [ n/a][/B]
Level 21: basic dodge n/a 
Level 22: basic weapon cleave n/a [B]advanced hand to hand n/a [/B] 
Level 23: basic shield cleave n/a 
Level 24: [B]advanced enhanced damage n/a[/B]
Level 25: basic lore n/a 
Level 26: [B]advanced shield block n/a[/B]
Level 27: advanced fast healing n/a 
Level 30: [B] [selectable] [ n/a] [/B] [B][race perk] [ n/a]
[/B]Level 33: basic headbutt n/a 
Level 36: basic haymaker n/a 
Level 38: basic double grip n/a 
Level 40: [B][selectable] [ n/a][/B]
Level 45: [B][race perk] [ n/a] [/B]
Level 46: rage focus [ n/a]
Level 50: [B][selectable] [ n/a][/B]

Please do not derail this thread.

Common Concerns:

Berserkers don't need to be revamped!

This applies to all classes, not only berserkers. Also, think of this not as a revamp but an upgrade. Just like when paths were added to warriors/rangers/zerks, this is the same as adding a great many paths to ALL classes.

XX is unbalanced!

Then we can change XX. As mentioned above, this system makes balancing actually a lot easier once in place, since you tweak skills more finely and separate classes from races. This isn't the design stage to be nitpicky about individual tier balancing.

An remorted invoker with dirt kick and hellstream? NO WAY!

There is no remorting involved in this at all. You cannot gain cross-class skills. This can not happen.

This is so confusing and over-complicates the game!

This is no more confusing than anything else. With only five selections per character, it is similar to what thieves/warriors have now and less than crusaders. What it does do is add a great deal of depth to the characters. In an RP-PK focused game, that is a great asset.

This ruins classes that get selectables as their main perk!

Those classes will still get more selectables. Remember, all current selectables are included in the system. If you get weapon expertises, you can use them to upgrade weapon tiers.

People pick xx race to get xx effect, in this system, anyone can get that effect!

This is half true. In example of stone giants and boulder throw, it is possible for some other combinations to get the thunderclap effect through specialization (I spend my picks on headbutt or haymaker as a berserker). However, the stone giant perk remains as they get this for FREE. Other races/classes (thunderclap is not available to everyone, even if they want it) have to spend very valuable selections to get that bonus. So, stone giants stay unique in these terms.

Changing the foundation of the game is a BAD thing!

This is a very good and serious concern. Everything must eventually change. This kind of change is following the pattern of changes that have already been integrated (paths, etc---which were also resisted heavily). So while it is a change, it is the natural next step (not a giant, random leap) from paths and does not deviate from the philosophy of the system we have now (not changing the structure or mechanics of PK in any shape or form). The old system is 100% preserved (you can continue to play the old berserker if you so wish) and no new skills/features are introduced. It is only expanding those already in place. I feel it is a very safe change in regards to this and one that I hope older players can appreciate and enjoy.

How will this work for attacks?

Basic attack is base attack as it is now.

Advanced attack is second attack.

Expert attack is third attack.

Master attack is fourth attack.

As classes earn second attack (communers), third (melees/hybrids/rogues), and fourth (warriors), they get the corresponding level for free. Warriors spend no points to become masters. Also remember that there is a limit. A rogue or hybrid can not learn fourth attack, even if they wanted to. Communers would be capped at third attack and so forth.

How do tier caps work?

They apply to all the mini-paths. For example, a berserker cannot learned advanced staff. A berserker cannot learn expert dodge (rogue hybrids) or master dodge (only dedicated rogues). A warrior/berserker cannot learn advanced meditation (DKs, BLMs, monks) or master meditation (paladins, communers, casters). This is a balancer and ensure that berserkers will still play like berserkers in the end. It is good that we don't know exactly what each character's perks/tactics are, but we should have a general idea of how the class will operate and think. This maintains that.

How will this work for spells/racial skills?

As for spell/racial skill details, the general idea is that stronger spells get weaker benefits/ease of play/passive benefits. Here are some examples I drew up:

[B]basic burning hands[/B]
--advanced burning hands (can blind with smoke)
--master burning hands (ignores saves and resistances)
[B]basic flame arrow[/B]
--advanced flame arrow (the spell hits the target group, similar to sharpmetal)
--master flame arrow (shoots a free flame arrow whenever the caster is targeted by a fired weapon, even to other rooms)
[B]basic fireball[/B]
--advanced fireball (adds 10 to the target's saves when calculating damage)
--master fireball (ignores resistances)
[B]basic firestorm[/B]
--advanced firestorm (explodes twice on the tick, giving two damage rolls and chances to blind)
--master firestorm (synergy damage bonus to all fire spells 5% when active, similar to fireshield now)
[B]basic fireshield[/B]
--advanced fireshield (cancels the weakness to fire)
--master fireshield (a further synergy damage bonus to fire spells of 5%)
[B]basic protective shield[/B]
--advanced protective shield (-30 AC)
--master protective shield (cannot be dispelled/dropped by dispel magic/haymaker/chii bolts)
[B]basic curse[/B]
--advanced curse (lowers the the target's defense/damage rolls by 5%)
--master curse (massive penalty to luck)
[B]basic shield[/B]
--advanced shield (-40 AC)
--master shield (missile shield)
[B]basic catalepsy[/B]
--advanced catalepsy (no poison/plague damage in catalepsy)
--master catalepsy (enables HP regen in catalepsy)
[B]basic blood vow[/B]
--advanced blood vow (can cancel the vow after half of the duration has expired--similar to monk's empower)
--master blood vow (can have two separate blood vows at the same time)
[B]basic sleep[/B]
--advanced sleep (target can't regen during the sleep)
--master sleep (sleeps the target group)
[B]basic curse weapon[/B]
--advanced curse weapon (no damage to the weapon when cursed)
--master curse weapon (no nodrop)
[B]basic mana charge[/B]
--advanced mana charge (halves the flare damage)
--master mana charge (can fully charge any type of weapon)
[B]basic malform weapon[/B]
--advanced malform weapon (weapon starts with nodrop/burnproof)
--master malform weapon (each kill counts as two kills)
[B]basic shed[/B]
--advanced shed (double skin HP)
--master shed (follows the slith, similar to a mirror image)

This makes skills much stronger than they were before!

Yes, these skills ARE stronger than before. The base class will be quite a bit stronger than the base class now. The idea behind this is to lessen (not nullify/replace) the importance of full sets of high-end EQ, especially for melees. Don't worry though, that base +2 avg damage will never replace a superior weapon (and of course will stack with it!). One reason that it is there is to represent that a berserker using a weapon hits a bit harder than most other people using the same weapon. Like I mentioned before, this will require some toning of the high-end equipment (which needs to be toned anyways). For the full rationale, refer back to the EQ section of my original post...and yes, again, I think this will take some balancing (again, which needs to be done anyways and it makes future balancing much easier).

Exactly how many upgrades will each combo get in the end?

A combo will get the same racial skills (unique to each race and non-selectable) as now, three automatic skill boosts (non-selectable and unique to each race/class combo), a number of automatic skill boosts based on the class (non-selectable), and five selectable skill boosts.

Can you show me more examples?

More random skill/spell examples:

[B]basic counter[/B]
--advanced counter (twin counter)
--master counter (chance to counter when blind)
[B]basic decoy[/B]
--advanced decoy (decoy explodes for damage)
--master decoy (decoy appears on where)
[B]basic sneak[/B]
--advanced sneak (no extra moves drain)
--master sneak (25% autosneak)
[B]basic air shield[/B]
--advanced air shield (-30 AC)
--master air shield (immune to air damage)
[B]basic reflective shield[/B]
--advanced reflective shield (old lag protection)
--master reflective (old magical damage reflection)
[B]basic strangle[/B]
--advanced strangle (counts as +1 size)
--master strangle (+1 hour duration)
[B]basic pugil[/B]
--advanced pugil (one swinging attack)
--master pugil (same number of attacks as dual wield)
[B]basic create food[/B]
--advanced create food (food casts cure critical)
--master create food (food casts bless)
[B]basic create spring[/B]
--advanced create spring (milk spring)
--master create spring (changes room type to water for one tick)
[B]basic bless arms[/B]
--advanced bless arms (+1 parry/hitroll/luck)
--master bless arms (+1 avg dam/damroll/svs vs. spell)
[B]basic shield disarm[/B]
--advanced shield disarm (+3 to weapon rating for shield disarm/-3 to opponent's weapon rating to shield disarm)
--master shield disarm (negates opponent shield block for one tick if cursed shield)
[B]basic offhand disarm[/B]
--advanced offhand disarm (+3 to weapon rating for disarm)
--master offhand disarm (negates offhand weapon/defenses for a tick if the opponent is dual wielding a cursed weapon)
[B]basic sequencer[/B]
--advanced sequencer (can hold more spells)
--master sequencer (can hold spells of any level)
[B]basic balance[/B]
--advanced balance (no damage from lag attacks)
--master balance (doesn't need flight/boat to enter water/air rooms)
[B]basic vanish[/B]
--advanced vanish (can vanish in combat easily)
--master vanish (half lag/mana cost)
[B]basic sense motion[/B]
--advanced sense motion (as peek)
--master sense motion (can sense while sleeping/meditating and successful steals)
[B]basic stone skin[/B]
--advanced stone skin (-30 AC)
--master stone skin (resist bash-type damage)
[B]basic fired weapons[/B]
--advanced fired weapons (+1 range)
--master fired weapons (+1 range)
[B]basic aura[/B]
--advanced aura (-30 AC/-4 svs vs. spell)
--master aura (-30 AC/-4 svs vs. spell)
[B]basic mounted charge[/B]
--advanced mounted charge (hits the target group)
--master mounted charge (can charge with any weapon type)
[B]basic stake[/B]
--advanced stake (never fails to slay coffined vampires)
--master stake (can use as an opener for damage only once per day against non-coffined vampires)
[B]basic holy wrath[/B]
--advanced holy wrath (also casts lightning bolt when cast outdoors)
--master holy wrath (may cause fear on demon/undead/vamp/lich)
[B]basic hellstream[/B]
--advanced hellstream (exploded items cause damage)
--master hellstream (cast lag -15%)
[B]basic kick[/B]
--advanced kick (double kick)
--master kick (auto kick when lagged/pilfered/nerved/etc)
[B]basic barrier[/B]
--advanced barrier (25% less mana drain)
--master barrier (25% less mana drain)
[B]basic rescue[/B]
--advanced rescue (rescues from all attackers)
--master rescue (extra round of attacks against the foe being rescued from)
[B]basic isolate[/B]
--advanced isolate (causes fear in qraces/classes)
--master isolate (half chance to resist)
[B]basic envenom[/B]
--advanced envenom (can poison weapons)
--master envenom (lotus scourge)
[B]basic cleave[/B]
--advanced cleave (+10% cleave damage)
--master cleave (can cleave with any weapon type)
[B]basic iceball[/B]
--advanced iceball (casts chill touch when cast on water)
--master iceball (casts icicle when cast on water)
[B]basic ikuzachi[/B]
--advanced ikuzachi (one round lag)
--master ikuzachi (causes fear on saves failure)
[B]basic soul tap[/B]
--advanced soul tap (double duration)
--master soul tap (restores HP on the group)
[B]basic energy drain[/B]
--advanced energy drain (greater transfer back to caster)
--master energy drain (may paralyze)
[B]basic assassinate[/B]
--advanced assassinate (half lag)
--master assassinate (death kiss)
[B]basic blackjack[/B]
--advanced blackjack (counts as +1 size)
--master blackjack (may cause misdirection on fail/immune)
[B]basic onslaught[/B]
--advanced onslaught (no mana cost)
--master onslaught (+10% damage)
[B]basic pry[/B]
--advanced pry (fail message for nodrop/cursed items)
--master pry (ignores weight calculation)
[B]basic throw[/B]
--advanced throw (accuracy +15%)
--master throw (throw on flee/murder)
[B]basic backstab[/B]
--advanced backstab (dual backstab)
--master backstab (can backstab with any weapon type)
[B]basic caltraps[/B]
--advanced caltraps (duration +1 hour/dex -2)
--master caltraps (can use on flying opponents)
[B]basic edge[/B]
--advanced edge (2 edges per item)
--master edge (can choose magic damage on normal shurikens)
[B]basic blindness[/B]
--advanced blindness (blind fighting -10%)
--master blindness (hitroll -4)
[B]basic bash[/B]
--advanced bash (+2% bash proficiency)
--master bash (+5% bash damage)
[B]basic nerve[/B]
--advanced nerve (-5% defenses)
--master nerve (lags for 2 rounds)
[B]basic poison[/B]
--advanced poison (duration/avg damage +1)
--master poison (duration/avg damage +1)
[B]basic insect swarm[/B]
--advanced insect swarm (pollen causes 5% spell casting failure)
--master insect swarm (can use in any terrain except water)
[B]basic giant strength[/B]
--advanced giant strength (+4 damroll/hitroll)
--master giant strength (can wield two-handed weapons in one hand)
[B]basic plague[/B]
--advanced plague (doesn't spread to the caster)
--master plague (increased chance to spread)
[B]basic herb[/B]
--advanced herb (duration +1 hour/dex -2)
--master herb (can use on flying opponents)
[B]basic know alignment[/B]
--advanced know alignment (share ethos/clan/cabal rank)
--master know alignment (shows PK record/practice sheet/ and total hp/moves/mana)
[B]basic enfeeble[/B]
--advanced enfeeble (-1 con/dex)
--master enfeeble (-1 all stats)
[B]basic crane stance[/B]
--advanced crane stance (autofly)
--master crane stance (attacks drain more mana)
[B]basic bless[/B]
--advanced bless (luck/hit/dam/svs vs spell +2)
--master bless (regen +15%)
[B]basic voodoo[/B]
--advanced voodoo (non-rare dolls)
--master voodoo (half wait time between uses)
[B]basic monkey stance[/B]
--advanced monkey stance (25% chance of balance)
--master monkey stance (two extra attacks per round)
[B]basic pilfer[/B]
--advanced pilfer (can pilfer for damage when blind)
--master pilfer (+10% damage)
[B]basic hex[/B]
--advanced hex (-10% random skill/spell)
--master hex (-5% regen)
[B]basic ray of truth[/B]
--advanced ray of truth (half mana cost)
--master ray of truth (ignores target pk count)
[B]basic hide[/B]
--advanced hide (fail message on fail)
--master hide (can say/eat/drink without leaving hide)
[B]basic manalock[/B]
--advanced manalock (protects against haymaker)
--master manalock (can use with other shields)
[B]basic path of deceit[/B]
--advanced path of deceit (half mana cost)
--master path of deceit (ignores caster pk count)
[B]basic camouflage[/B]
--advanced camouflage (group camouflage)
--master camouflage (can say/eat/drink without leaving camouflage)
[B]basic divine intervention[/B]
--advanced divine intervention (half wait time between casts)
--master divine intervention (casts as if +1 spell level)

The more I think about this idea the more I like it... for the primary reason that it preserves the good stuff that we have and just makes it ten times deeper and more interesting. You could play the same class a dozen times and actually be using somewhat different fighting tactics every time... consider an invoker with extra points in ice spells vs an invoker with extra points in fire spells vs extra points in mana charge and dispel magic... still an invoker each time around, but the increased potency of what you've selected increases reliance on certain spells and will change your tactics to maximize their effectiveness. We could have necromancers that focused on enhancements to animate and strength damned so they've got better pets, necromancers that focused on their mals and can sleep and spell you up better, and necros that focused on acid blast and shatter to do better direct damage... every single class would become so much more interesting.

Also, it'd make it a lot easier to open up certain race/class combos that we currently have closed off for balance rather than RP reasons... we could simply cut back on certain skill levels for that specific combo without weakening the already existing combos. Example: open up storm paladins (they're allowed for warriors, clerics, and crusaders - I cannot imagine an RP reason that they couldn't be paladins), but limit them at basic level for meditation, even if storm clerics and human paladins automatically get advanced meditation. Allows the combo, but keeps it from being overpowered without having to do any character-specific toning.

black jack advanced and master read envenom. Check it.

While I like the Idea, I fear that the Master Fireball would make ferals ubergimped.

I believe its a fine piece of work but it needs some polish before it will shine. For me a skill is over powered if a single race/class combo will be defenseless against it. If a Ferals saves can not save him from fire, then feral vs. invoker would always be one round. Either the Feral succeeds his assassinate or he is turned to a cinder.

Maybe some skills/spells may not be so balanced, but it really depends on what other skills can do. If an invoker chooses fireball specialty, I do sure hope they are strong against feral. Then again, if that feral chose fury specialty, they might have a way to strike back.

Of course if someone specializes in your weakness and you didn't specialize in a counter, you will have a tough time. Then again, that invoker would have a tough time against, let's say, fire giants.

Aside from individual skills, what do you think of the design concept as a whole?

Edit: There are a whole slew of skills/spells where certain race/class combos are defenseless against them. Very simple example is bash vs rogues.

Just seems like you'd be opening the door up to a larger scale of "power combos" once the system gets worked out and the enhanced skills are suited up with the best class choice.

The concept is great, who can honestly say the more in depth and customizable we make the game is for the worst?

This would be a huge undertaking in sense of the code...you're talking about new dmg tables, new code for almost all skills/spell, etc

The balancing/testing needed would be insane. No one can predict what a super-ice invoker or a mega-mal necro or a super-buffed thief is gonna be like.

I honestly feel like you're underplaying or underthinking the enormous change this would bring to the game.

Other than that, I think the concept is great. Most ideas/suggestions are. You've fleshed yours out and presented it better, true. Just not sure the pros/cons are in the favor of implementing it right now with all the other things that could/should be being taken care of. With a small pbase, something like this that would inevitably allow a larger scale of "power combos" would, in my opinion, be a negative thing.

The reasons Celerity has brought up for this change are exactly what this game needs. It's why FL can't keep my attention for more than a couple months...I always end up bored or frustrated.

HOWEVER, there are some spells and skills which need to be on an exemption list of being upgradeable...namely the one-shot kills but also some defensive spells: Spells/Skills such as Powerword Kill, Assassinate, Spell Turning, Minister, Mana Charge, Dispel Magic(!!)...these are just a few examples I could think of off the top of my head.

Edit: Unless the masteries of these skills does not increase their percentage to work. For example, Dispel Magic mastery could mean you have the ability to not dispel affects that YOU have landed on the opponent.

B

I don't know. I would like to see new skills/spells before you revamp the entire way that the old skills and spells are done. That is just me personally.

My take on this, is the same.

This is to complex, much code changes and unpredictable balance shifts. FL would not be the same after this.

Learning curve would even be worse, given the fact that information flow is extremely limited in this game.

Contrary to what you say, this would imply massive code work by Z. Massive general IMM evaluation of what to change. A gear re-balance.

I do not think we have the IMM man power for, such an activity.

Some of the ideas are interesting. The parts about Races.

Perhaps partial implementation could be a compromise solution. Perks for races, starting with Half-Elves Underdogs.

Cel, this suggestion would bring another layer of complexity to a game that is already complex enough. And not just that, if we look at things realisticly, you will see that we simply do not have the resources for such a huge undertaking, especially when we are not certain what fruits it would bring.

You have ignored my advice and have listed a few reason why we need this and what it would bring. You know what I see when I look at the pattern? I simply see another dimension in which powercombos can grow.

First we have rece/class combos. Then we add cabals. Then we add EQ. And then on top of that, you can grow even more powerful thanks to this. As much as I hate to agree with manboobs, "Just seems like you'd be opening the door up to a larger scale of "power combos".

Eventually there will be "best" builds again, and eventually there will be useless skills, again. Yes you can counter a build with another build, but with such huge fragmentation the chance that someone would actually build your bane gets even smaller therefore the power of your combo grows.

Don't get me wrong, I can't say I don't like the basic idea. I doubt anyone can say that actually. We play this mud because of its complexity and because of the power we can gain, but can we take another level of both of those? And if we (the older players) CAN, is it worthy to increase even more the gap between the average player and the "pro"? Do we REALLY need that much diversity?

After all, this is not real life. I have spent 10 years playing this game, I still can't lead in gear, dischord and blood. I have had only two elders and not a single leader. I don't even have all the IDs of the important items. I don't even know what some of them do. I have never had a level 10 malform except on halloween. I haven't even been in all of the cabals. I have not had a single quest race/class. And I asure you, there are few people out there that are bigger powergamers than me. What is left for the average player?

PS. I love you.

10 years F0xx ?

HOWEVER, there are some spells and skills which need to be on an exemption list of being upgradeable...namely the one-shot kills but also some defensive spells: Spells/Skills such as Powerword Kill, Assassinate, Spell Turning, Minister, Mana Charge, Dispel Magic(!!)...these are just a few examples I could think of off the top of my head.

Edit: Unless the masteries of these skills does not increase their percentage to work. For example, Dispel Magic mastery could mean you have the ability to not dispel affects that YOU have landed on the opponent.

Yes, 'strong' skills get less of a boost compared to 'weak' skills generally. Take a look at the malform/path of deceit examples.

I don't know. I would like to see new skills/spells before you revamp the entire way that the old skills and spells are done. That is just me personally.

Just not sure the pros/cons are in the favor of implementing it right now with all the other things that could/should be being taken care of.

No reason why we can't do this. Go ahead and post your ideas in another thread.

This is to complex,

Cel' date=' this suggestion would bring another layer of complexity to a game that is already complex enough. [/quote']

Do you mean too complex from a design standpoint? The premise is very simple. Give each skill a path.

As always, the tricky part comes in balancing it, and so most of my post is based around that: the number of choices, who can get what skill, what each tier does, and so on.

The change itself is surprisingly small though.

much code changes

This would be a huge undertaking in sense of the code...you're talking about new dmg tables' date=' new code for almost all skills/spell, etc[/quote']

If the design template for the skills is completed, I bet the coding aspect would only take a few hours. There is nothing new to code here, just make a branching template and add in the effects. The nice thing is, there isn't nothing new here. No new skills to code, nothing that doesn't already exist in the code. For that reason, I think the coding is relatively easy. Easier than coding a single new class, for instance.

unpredictable balance shifts

The balancing/testing needed would be insane. No one can predict what a super-ice invoker or a mega-mal necro or a super-buffed thief is gonna be like.

I simply see another dimension in which powercombos can grow. First we have rece/class combos. Then we add cabals. Then we add EQ. And then on top of that' date=' you can grow even more powerful thanks to this.[/quote']

Just seems like you'd be opening the door up to a larger scale of "power combos"

This actually helps the race/class power combo problem. This system helps weaker combos and does not benefit stronger combos as much. A great point about the system is, it is really, really easy to tweak if some particular combo is too strong. We can't tweak power combos now without hurting other combos as it is now.

Base characters will be more powerful than base characters before. That is true. This is intentional in regards to upcoming EQ changes. Equipment is going to be rebalanced anyways, so that much isn't extra work for IMMs.

Yes, balancing is the hard part. Far-reaching? Definitely. Unpredictable? Not at all. For the same reason--there isn't any new skills to think about here. When designing the balance, we know pretty much what the skills will do and how strong they will be. How? Because they are already in-game. Again, a new class would be harder to balance.

FL would not be the same after this.

It probably won't be. Fact is though, it isn't going to be the same even if you let the game stagnate to death without a single change. There weren't a whole lot of code changes with Iru-Malch, but the game certainly did change.

Learning curve would even be worse, given the fact that information flow is extremely limited in this game.

I'm going to argue that getting and knowing equipment is the hard part here, not knowing what skills to use when. Class tactics are pretty simple. Warrior? Wield the right weapons, dirt, and maybe bash. Invoker? Charge your staff, spam the approriate damage spell with a dispel sometimes. Clerics? Keep your spells up and manage your mana.

This won't change that significantly. In fact, it might even lessen the curve since you can design your character to fit your playing style.

Finally, if this was ever put in, I don't think the effects would be hidden. It wouldn't be a secret what master detect good would do. Everyone would be able to look at what everything does without having to make a million characters to test everything. Again, that is even easier than the system we employ now. We wouldn't need to hide things anymore to keep the game interesting because it will have enough of a real depth in it to be interesting anyways.

if we look at things realisticly' date=' you will see that we simply do not have the resources for such a huge undertaking[/quote']

What resources do we need exactly? A coder and designer? For IMMs to look over the skill lists and red flag/discuss potential problems? All of this is doable with what we have now.

we are not certain what fruits it would bring.

I gave a list of benefits it will bring to the game.

You have ignored my advice

What advice was that?

Eventually there will be "best" builds again' date=' and eventually there will be useless skills, again.[/quote']

Of course there will be. The key point is that it will be an improvement over what we have now. That is the process of balancing.

is it worthy to increase even more the gap between the average player and the "pro"? What is left for the average player?

I don't think this will increase the gap at all. Pros and newbies won't change very much here. What it will change is that newbies can focus more on developing their characters as they want, increasing the RP potential at least.

.<

There would be much more coding than you think. And my point about pros/cons doesn't belong in another thread - those threads already exist. A major overhaul of class design like this is not gonna be a few hours of work and you're done. It is gonna tie up people for weeks if not months. That's the reality of it. No offense, but the staff of FL has never been exactly speedy with changes, be it simple area implementation or anything else. A massive rework like this (and yes, I realize you think it would be a subtle change, but I assure you there is a lot of work involved) would inevitably take a long time. If you had a staff working all day on it, then sure maybe a week or two...but in reality, it won't go down like that.

Any spell you alter to do more damage is gonna need new math for dmg tables. I suppose you could counter this by not making it have new max dmg, but simply roll higher than normal I guess.

And yes, it will make powerful combos more powerful and it will make weaker combos more powerful....in the end, not changing much except giving more powerful combos to powergamers.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea. The concept is great, it adds value to the game and the characters. High replay value...nothing about the idea that i don't love. but it's just my opinion...it isn't what the game needs right now.

So, not sure what kinda feedback you're really looking for..but to reiterate - the idea/concept/design is fabulous.

This would make balancing out power combos a lot easier, as you can balance that specific combo without altering other combinations that the race/class in question are involved in. Right now, ogre ranger anything tends to be pretty powerful - under this system, small tweaks could be made to the automatic selections granted to an ogre ranger to make them a tiny bit weaker than they are now, without compromising either ogres or rangers as a whole. If something becomes deemed a power combo, it can be very easily weakened under this system without making a ton of other combos too weak - right now, that's not the case, and we are left with simply having certain combos that are universally stronger than others.

I seriously see nothing wrong with this idea. Absolutely nothing wrong. Perhaps Zhokril or Anume can comment on it?

And it is time for change, people. So many people are against change probably because it'll put them back on the bottom of the totem pole again.. or whatever other excuse someone may have (such as imbalance.. reallllyyy?) but we won't get anywhere if we don't try it out.

Let's do this!

my personal argument isn't with imbalance, just for the record. I would like a challenge.

I just dont think this change is going to usher in a new wave of players, or keep them if they do come.

It has never been the class skills/spells that has let this mud grow stagnant. Sure it causes some older players to perhaps play less frequently...new players still have all classes and qraces to go through.

This idea does not bring growth. And growth is what you all need here.

Does that make it a crap idea? Not at all, I love this idea and would be great to see implemented into a game with a pbase to benefit.

So when will YOUR mud be up and running?

Actually I don't care. Not to be an a-hole but honestly I don't know what you are proposing besides changing then entire mud and every class, which in my opinion would be stupid. I could elaborate, but I won't. I will simply just say that what you are describing isn't FL, and I have been known to shun anything that has to do with a mud that well, isn't FL.

Reading comprehension fail. Sorry Superdale.

Over all I Like the Idea Cel, I just ran through my personal histories in game and knew that certain Power Combos would Trash other combos. That said, while I am not going to quote all the comments above, I would go on record to say to those who say this would make the game overly complex for players;

Look how complicated the game is now, in only takes minutes to learn, but it takes years to master.Face it we like it that way. We have made this game overly complex from the very beginning. Complexity breeds originality. I think as Pali suggested that it would make it easier for vets to create a counter combo for some of the other vets. I know in the beginning there would be a lot of trash talking about OP, but we have that now. It could be that the integration of something new might slow some long time FLers down and give them good reason for pause. In the end something like this could in fact cut down on the number of times we hear "Man I am tired of that OP garbage!".

I like it.