PK range

To make it clearer.  I don't want to make it so that every Nexus Elder should be going out there to slay every good because it is the 'RP' of Nexus Reaver, Elder or not.  I also don't want every Sigil sitting there doing nothing because it is 'against Sigil RP" (I am actually sick to death of hearing that).  Let's brainstorm some criteria for 'not following cabal duties'.

1.  Do we suggest that you should fight anyone who 'knocks'?  If so, then we constitutes fighting?  I agree if you are inside your cabal, you should come out and defend.  But, that doesn't mean immediately.   It's actually smarter PK wise to wait until an ogre or undead to take the standard and THEN go after them.  Are we going to penalize this tactic?

2.  Elders are already held to a higher standard.  From every Elder I've had if I don't fulfill cabal duties, I had an Imm drop in on me for it.  But, if we are going to police Elders it should be even all across the board.  Are we going to penalize Syndicate Elder for collecting a bounty on someone who is uncaballed or an inductee?  If we are saying it is alright for a Syndicate to do it, why is it not alright for everyone else?

1. If Elders are held to a higher RP standard (basically there is as every Elder must have and maintain RP points), what about Trusted as well?  What about veteran?  Savant Veteran get serious boosts at V.  -10svs is huge as well as its other affects.  Cutting damage with Chronoshield is huge as well.  Warmaster Stance takes off anyone dispelling you entirely save for the class that can put you to sleep.  What exactly are we talking about here as steamrolling?

If you got steamrolled because you didn't put up sanctuary, well.......that's pretty much your fault.  If you got steamrolled because you put up sanctuary but there is no rare eq available to give you enough saves because the decked necro can dispel you anyways......well, then what do we say to that?  This is why I suggested a way to give new people a basic set of equipment so they KNOW WHAT TO STRIVE FOR.  Most new people I see die, die because they have no idea how much armor is enough or how much saves is enough.  Giving them a basic set at least allows them to see the affects the set has on PK.

Nobody is saying anything about cabal duties.  Just because you're a Nexus Reaver does not mean you HAVE to kill everything in sight.  If you cabal enemy is on, odds are YOU'LL be at the same PK RANK with the point system based on kill I suggested.  If you're not Its clearly a new player and they're just learning the Cabal, I have no problem with waiting for them to get to their rank, giving them time to do their duties.

Syndicate going for a bounty.  Should be around or near their rank really, so You still collect the bounties.  Why would there be a bounty on a newb player?  We shouldn't be abusing bounties like this.

My 2 cents.

Why as a community we don't want to encourage nice clean fights with people in your skill level is beyond me.  Do you really sit at your computer when you kill someone in THREE ROUNDS because they're no where near ready make us happy?  Is this something we want to encourage?  Or do we want to see PK logs of Ragnomar fighting Ialethe and making it more enticing to climb the board and have the big dogs fight the big dogs?

Also Lets say if you're under a tier you can always choose to fight someone ABOVE IT and the person above the TIER can respond with killing the and chasing the LOWER tiered character.  Thats how you climb the ranks.

39 minutes ago, Iznazti said:

Don't derail this thread @Archbishop Monk.  There is something called balance.  Kicking the shit out of someone repeatedly because you can is harassment.  The end.  Some of you may get off on this, but I for one do not.  Then watching while you're getting the shit kicked out of you and then they just ignore other people is cowardice.  There is nothing that can change my mind.

I disagree that it's cowardice unequivocally, and don't think it's fair to make sweeping generalizations. Let me give you an example:

I got in "trouble" (not real trouble, but rebuked in a jabbing way and feel like I would have been in actual trouble if I kept doing it) with Killian for allowing players into Syndicate without proving themselves in combat. This is not a dig at my cabal imm, who I think does an excellent job at embodying the spirit of the underworld crime organization. But as a player, my goal as a cabal elder is to make sure that people get into my cabal and enjoy their time there.

Now, let's look at the flip side and what Syndicate/Nexus are "supposed to be". Right off the bat, you HAVE to get a kill (per the thread on the forum with cabal entrance requirements) to be allowed entry. Now, I know this is not the case, but let's keep that in mind as an example.

Next, we've got qclasses and qraces (with the exception of Psionicist). All of those require a kill. Assuming we're talking about L50, that's gonna be your Liches and your Crusaders.

Then finally we've got classes that require kills to be successful. Dark-knights and crusaders can be successful without kills but will never reach their power peak and, in many cases, will never kill their toughest enemies and/or hard banes. Liches require kills to power up. Evil clerics require kills to power up. Barbarians require kills to power up.

And lastly, you've got gear. Sometimes bad PKers get taken cool places and wind up with good gear. Sometimes that Gear is exceptionally rare. Sometimes it's just really good and desirable.

So what's the result here? Something like 30-40% (conservatively) of available combos are going to require AT LEAST one kill to be successful. Am I likely to get that kill against a Ragnomar, a Zergedelt, a Lecitus - or going back in time, a Thulgan, a Kurvikhel, an Azun, a Martineius?

Hell. No.

So sorry not sorry, if I need kills for whatever I'm doing, yes I'm going to charge head on at the easy meat. I would be absolutely stupid not to. And you bet your ass I'm going to run and hide from the big boys. I might engage occasionally. I might have little skirmishes here and there, probing for weakness. But especially if they kill me pretty effortlessly (because of a bad combo match-up or maybe just because I suck), I'm definitely going to do everything I can to NOT fight them. And I don't think that makes someone a coward. That just makes them smart.

DISCLAIMER: The one caveat I will add here is that blatant, aggressive multi-killing for no apparent reason besides the fact that you can? I don't personally know anyone that gets their rocks off on that, but that's something I'd chat with the IMMs about. Even if the person isn't going to be punished directly for those actions, they might get asked to stop, nudged in the other direction, pushed/instigated toward killing stronger opponents, have their promotions slowrolled until they get their act together, etc. But I have only seen one instance of truly pointless multi-killing that was having a negative impact on a player's desire to log into the game since my return a few months ago.

18 minutes ago, Iznazti said:

Why as a community we don't want to encourage nice clean fights with people in your skill level is beyond me.  Do you really sit at your computer when you kill someone in THREE ROUNDS because they're no where near ready make us happy?  Is this something we want to encourage?  Or do we want to see PK logs of Ragnomar fighting Ialethe and making it more enticing to climb the board and have the big dogs fight the big dogs?

Is this for reals though haha? There is literally no such thing as a "nice clean fight" in real life, why would there be in FL? If Ragnomar only ever engaged Ialethe and sometimes the people that came after him... what's the point?

FL is a dangerous world. The tag line is "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here." The people that are truly excellent at PK in this game didn't get that way having good clean fights. They got that way getting the tar beat out of them again... and again... and again... and again... and again... and again... and again.

And again.

And then, when they got tired of getting smacked around from one end of the world to the other, they start to learn. People need to realize that in FL, your character doesn't deserve gear. They don't deserve a cabal. They don't deserve to live. Those aren't fundamental rights and they're not guarantees. You have to earn them in the first place and then, if you want to keep those things, you learn to earn them every minute you're logged in.

Expecting anything else is ludicrous and something of a discredit to the spirit of the game.

FL. Is. Dangerous. Embrace death, get better, become deadly.

12 minutes ago, EllaThePuppy said:

People need to realize that in FL, your character doesn't deserve gear. They don't deserve a cabal. They don't deserve to live. Those aren't fundamental rights and they're not guarantees. You have to earn them in the first place and then, if you want to keep those things, you learn to earn them every minute you're logged in.

To play devils advocate, you know what else isn't a right or inherently deserved? Having players.

Failure to adapt to the current gaming climate is an extremely risky play. 

Re: Kills being a requirement for stuff

I've always hated this, unless killing the crap out of a milk barrel counts for anything. Sometimes there's just literally no one on to kill.

19 minutes ago, EllaThePuppy said:

FL. Is. Dangerous. Embrace death, get better, become deadly.

This right here I'll somewhat disagree with as it is right in the rules.  Death is to be avoided.  While some may think, at least give it a shot.  A halfling thief 'giving it a shot' against a skilled fire giant berserker without -ac or enlarged isn't giving it a shot.  It is suicide plain and simple.

Yes, the old Vets died over and over and over and over and we learned.  Do you want to know the secret?  Many of us were ALL learning at the same time.  You didn't learn by getting one rounded, ever.  You learned by fighting that other guy who just got steamrolled as well because you both had next to nothing left or were in mithril/red dragon armor.  That is where we learned what to do and what not to do.  That is where we learned to be paranoid and type where every five seconds.  New players CANNOT learn the way we learned because that FL no longer exists.  This new FL is more dangerous now than the old FL ever was because before you could wear mithril and actually compete.  Go ahead and try to PK Glimick wearing blackfort armor and you'll pretty much be 3 rounded.

But I am on board with a tier type system.  I just want to clearly spell out what requirements will fit each tier.

THE WHOLE POINT OF THE THREAD IS THE BAD ASSES ARE SITTING THERE AVOIDING EACH OTHER!  WHILE THEY "go after the easy meat!"

Don't fucking tell me its not happening because I am watching it happen before my own very EYES!

3 hours ago, Trick said:

I'd like to see IMMs instigate some PK interactions between top tier characters...

Something like dropping a big ass TOWER in the middle of one of Tribunal's cities to incite some... 🙃

These  two cabals include players of all alignments. It takes more than one cookie to crumble for war to ensue. 

2 hours ago, Iznazti said:

Maybe players would delete less if they weren't getting three rounded by decked players.  While the Elites just ignore each other?

Elite players Salivate at the thought of an easy kill like it actually means something, yet when the tough fight comes along and the fight may be tough nothing happens.

What elites ignore each other? Aabahran is a dangerous place. If you are NOT READY TO BE AT 50 - don't rank to 50! Thats why there are 49 other ranks!

4 hours ago, Iznazti said:

Just an Idea for Pk range.  More often then not I'll be playing and I notice that some players who are well dressed and possess high ranks in cabals don't really attack each other.  They'd often rather take the easy route and go after a fresh 50- someone dressing.  Now I'm going to hear the same bs like its been this way forever.  Yeah well screw you there is nothing wrong with changes, or discussing them.  So if you don't have anything constructive to say then don't say anything at all.  That's the whole point of (ideas/suggestions).  THERE IS ALOT OF SKILL INVOLVED IN PK I AM WELL AWARE OF THIS

Maybe we can base Pk range on a points system where everything is factored in at level 50.  I don't care what anyone tells me, equipment is an enormous part of PK.  I watch two top dogs ignoring each other for whatever reason, yet they'll go attack someone weaker then them for whatever reason.  If we had maybe 2 tiers at 50 taking into account only Eq and cabal rank it might allow for people who are new to actually try new things and not get frustrated when they die because based on their In game Knowledge and lack of experience they'd only be fighting people within that skill level.

Just an Idea.

2 hours ago, Archbishop Monk said:

I'm all for implementing tiers, but we somewhat have a solution for this in Journeyman.  I have no idea how often it is handed out,

99% of the times its applied for. I in fact, have never seen it denied to a player. So have at it. 

2 hours ago, Iznazti said:

I'm not leaving a Gear trip because someone takes my standard.  I will go get it when I'm done.  There are two points to this thread though.

How do we encourage new players to "catch up".

How do we get Elites actually fighting Elites?

When do we call players out for douchbaggery?

Mud is Rp enforced.  I think we can do better to try and balance the gap.  I know for me personally I am pretty good at a few classes, but put a warrior in my hand (Carey) cough.  Im absolute shit!  Would be nice to try and bridge the gap in these cases.  Its tough to learn when you're frustrated.  We're all only human.

Your inability to sacrifice what you perceive as 'winning' to learn is your own business (this isn't an insult, its an observation. Everyone needs to do what is 'fun' for them or there is no point to playing a game). Anyone remember Ivesianna when she started? Absolute garbage. Total train wreck. Queue 3-4 months of getting her ass handed to her and suddenly we have that miraculous moment when they learn the class. Suddenly we have one of the strongest blm in our midst. They didn't start that way from nothing.

2 hours ago, egreir said:

Obviously it’s a pattern of behavior that would be punished. Not just a single occurrence

Ok whom? Who is actually breaking RP that needs to be punished? Savants kill warmasters. Warmasters kill savants. Nexians kill Knights. Tribunals hunt criminals. etc etc. Why on Gaia's green planet would they deviate from this?  If a bounty hunter doesn't want to kill ragnomar, and he has no bounty - why the hell would he? Similar to any Tribunal - not a criminal? Then unless for some other reason they have no reason to fight.

52 minutes ago, Iznazti said:

** Just because you're a Nexus Reaver does not mean you HAVE to kill everything in sight.  **

Syndicate going for a bounty.  Should be around or near their rank really, so You still collect the bounties.  Why would there be a bounty on a newb player?  We shouldn't be abusing bounties like this.

Point 1: Exactly. Although this is somewhat contradictory to what else you have said.

Point 2: Why is there a bounty on a new player? Why not? Don't rank to 50 if you can't swim in the shark tank.

43 minutes ago, Iznazti said:

Why as a community we don't want to encourage nice clean fights with people in your skill level is beyond me.  Do you really sit at your computer when you kill someone in THREE ROUNDS because they're no where near ready make us happy?  Is this something we want to encourage?  Or do we want to see PK logs of Ragnomar fighting Ialethe and making it more enticing to climb the board and have the big dogs fight the big dogs?

Nice clean fights? What does this even mean? 

Creating a PK tier points system is not going to work. So now you have (as previously mentioned) Lecitus, Ragnomar and Zergedelt on the top level. What happens now? They jsut sit there and do nothing? Why would this encourage them to attack each other? Only Rag and Lec have a reason to kill one another... I don't get it.

5 minutes ago, Iznazti said:

THE WHOLE POINT OF THE THREAD IS THE BAD ASSES ARE SITTING THERE AVOIDING EACH OTHER!  WHILE THEY "go after the easy meat!"

Don't fucking tell me its not happening because I am watching it happen before my own very EYES!

Calm down. Do not swear on my forum or I'll ban you. This is your only warning.

I have seen no evidence of this. Who is not attacking whom?

2 minutes ago, Iznazti said:

THE WHOLE POINT OF THE THREAD IS THE BAD ASSES ARE SITTING THERE AVOIDING EACH OTHER!  WHILE THEY "go after the easy meat!"

 

Don't fucking tell me its not happening because I am watching it happen before my own very EYES!

Easy cowboy. I'm not saying the badasses shouldn't be fighting one another (although sometimes the badasses have a perfectly valid reason to not be fighting each other).

What I am saying is that it's just as unfair to assume that Joe Multikiller doesn't have just as good of a reason to kill YOU as they do Gary Badass. And killing you may give them the gear/cabal points/weapon level/confidence/wtf ever they need to go kill the big dog. There's no reason to have a hard-coded enforcement that prohibits players from playing the game. If you want a PK shield, play a Herald or a Merchant.

Anyone recommending to new players that they should play a Drow Invoker in Nexus is an asshole. It doesn't make all the other players assholes for killing that Drow Invoker Nexus newb. It makes the person who gave them bad advice a dick (or an idiot).

Some classes are going to have it harder than others. Same with races. Same with cabals. If you want something less challenging/more survivable/easier to PK. And the "you" in these statements is directed at anyone that's concerned about their ability to PK and/or feels they're being "harassed" in PK situations. Like I said, I've only seen ONE such situation that I'd agree was bordering on unnecessary multi-killing since coming back a few months ago. And even that situation was LIGHT YEARS better than the shit people used to put up with. The game HAS evolved, the community HAS matured. The stuff we complain about today versus the stuff we complained about 15 years ago is worlds apart in terms of frequency and severity.

To be honest, I think this all boils down to needing a little HUP back in our lives. Where's @L-A and @WarriorCleric when you need 'em?

2 minutes ago, Ulmusdorn said:

Point 2: Why is there a bounty on a new player? Why not? Don't rank to 50 if you can't swim in the shark tank.

I'm sorry but placing bounties just for placing them seems like shitty RP to me.  This is an RP mud right?  We should be placing bounties for VALID reasons, not just because.

4 minutes ago, Ulmusdorn said:

Creating a PK tier points system is not going to work. So now you have (as previously mentioned) Lecitus, Ragnomar and Zergedelt on the top level. What happens now? They jsut sit there and do nothing? Why would this encourage them to attack each other? Only Rag and Lec have a reason to kill one another... I don't get it.

Lower character can jump up and kill these characters and these characters can in turn retaliate.  If everyone want to shit on idea just because its the way we've done things......SO be it.  Its a stupid mentality that is doing no favors to anyone.

13 minutes ago, Wade said:

To play devils advocate, you know what else isn't a right or inherently deserved? Having players.

Failure to adapt to the current gaming climate is an extremely risky play. 

Re: Kills being a requirement for stuff

I've always hated this, unless killing the crap out of a milk barrel counts for anything. Sometimes there's just literally no one on to kill.

I understand your point, but I also think it's incredibly unfair for the playerbase to hold the IMM's hostage by saying "well if you want players to keep playing, do XYZ". I think in this particular case, FAR more players would choose to leave if a change along these lines were enacted than vice versa.

Sorry.... Whats wrong with the moderate tier? 

Also the day we start dictating to players who they should be killing when - is the day there is a mutiny. Can you imagine being told how to play your character? Gimme a break.

3 minutes ago, Ulmusdorn said:

Sorry.... Whats wrong with the moderate tier? 

Also the day we start dictating to players who they should be killing when - is the day there is a mutiny. Can you imagine being told how to play your character? Gimme a break.

You can't Learn where all the rare equipment is in game.  You are stuck wearing barely any.  You don't have the equipment to actually TRY and pk either.  Moderate Tier to me is for people who DONT want anything to do with PK.

I legit stomped on someone (I WONT SAY WHERE)  Because I just attacked them and they were dead within seconds.  I didn't look at their eq before I attacked and I haven't seen them since!

Is this what we want?

Opening up a Tier System where you climb the ranks ENCOURAGES PKill among the players.  YOU want to climb the LADDER and be on top?  Be the one with the most kills.

It also offers protection for those who want to equip.  We go by the philosophy oh this is how we've done it always?  IS IT WORKING?  ARE players staying when they come?  I don't have the answers to those questions, but I don't see the mud growing.  Isn't that what we want for the mud to grow?

As far as I'm concerned shooting down an idea because you think the status quo is fine is ridiculous.  Face it people just want it easy.

Why is this a bad Idea?

33 minutes ago, Archbishop Monk said:

Many of us were ALL learning at the same time.  You didn't learn by getting one rounded, ever.  You learned by fighting that other guy who just got steamrolled as well because you both had next to nothing left or were in mithril/red dragon armor.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

7 minutes ago, Iznazti said:

Opening up a Tier System where you climb the ranks ENCOURAGES PKill among the players.  YOU want to climb the LADDER and be on top?  Be the one with the most kills.

It also offers protection for those who want to equip.  We go by the philosophy oh this is how we've done it always?  IS IT WORKING?  ARE players staying when they come?  I don't have the answers to those questions, but I don't see the mud growing.  Isn't that what we want for the mud to grow?

 

As far as I'm concerned shooting down an idea because you think the status quo is fine is ridiculous.  Face it people just want it easy.

Why is this a bad Idea?

You seem very emotionally invested in this idea at the moment, which leads me to believe that you have a horse in the race. Maybe you feel like you're being targeted, or maybe you feel like you can't get people to fight you. Not really sure which.

The point is, there is no good way IMHO for an idea like this to work. Codifying a PK restriction via game mechanics is setting people up to have a bad time. Just because I kill enough people in the lowest tier (who could only be moderately less garbage than I am) to wind up moving up in tier is simply trading one mismatched PK battle for another one.

You can't enforce learning. You can't code learning. If people want to learn to PK, they need to PK. Big, small, doesn't matter. You can learn something from every fight whether you're the winner or loser.

And as I said before, if you genuinely feel that someone is abusing/harassing someone of a much lower skill level, do two things: 1) Take a deep breath and ask yourself "Is everything exactly as it seems?" and 2) Report it to the IMMs so they can investigate what's going on and why, if they feel that your report merits an investigation.

1 minute ago, EllaThePuppy said:

You seem very emotionally invested in this idea at the moment, which leads me to believe that you have a horse in the race. Maybe you feel like you're being targeted, or maybe you feel like you can't get people to fight you. Not really sure which.

I fight everyone.  I go after my enemies.  I do my best.  I play bad characters and die all the time.  I can also roll 3 classes and do very well.  Doesn't matter if I have a horse in the race.  Whats the name of this place we are in ohhhhh yeahhhhhh IDEAS and SUGGESTIONS.  I made one.  I said lets talk about it.  2 of you have decided to just disagree with out saying how your way IMPROVES the GAME.  You've just said NO because this is the way we've always done it.

You want to take my idea and take a dump on it?  So be it.  Give me reasons why you woudn't do it.  What you think the pros and cons are.  How about we try that.