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PK range

10 hours ago, Kassieti said:

  And let's not assume that fighting the big dogs is the only PK in this game.

I understand this.  My whole point is I'd like to see things spiced up a bit.  I want to see the best of the best fighting with each other as well as a buffer for those people who are new and trying to learn, now maybe a point system may not be completely effective, but man something's got to give.

I enjoy Pking.  Doesn't matter if I suck and die.  I want to do it.  I want other people to have a fair chance to learn appropriately.  Your not going to learn anything getting three rounded, and then the argument Forsakenlands is Dangerous.  Yes it is, and it still can be.  I think people should really be fighting people based on their Skill level.  Nothing is stopping someone from moving up.  I think we can look at changes, while keeping the things that make this game great.

What is a newb going to learn from fighting Anume?  Maybe They'll learn to run, and I bet they wont learn that.  Give them someone within their own skill level to fight, and next thing you know they're building confidence and trying to climb the ranks.

Yes we all like to sit in our Cabals and Do nothing.  I see many people do it.  Now perhaps their writing notes, but a Tier system or something similar may just give a player a reason to go hunt said big dog, being a big god themselves.

 

Something that has really been bothering me.  I see (some not all)  Warmasters ducking fights.  This should be a HARD NO.  I remember when a Warmaster fought anyone anywhere.  They have some of the strongest abilities in the game, and you should be willing to die to earn them.

15 hours ago, Iznazti said:

I get it.  I want to do both though.  I think Pk is a huge part of the game and sometimes we should encourage it more.  I want to see more big dogs fighting big dogs.  I just think it will enrich the entire game.  Maybe my idea isn't the greatest, or maybe it wont work, I just feel that the learning curve is HUGE and its time that as a community we combat this some how as well.  The Status quo just isn't working.  Now if maybe there is information I'm not aware of.

Are new players staying?

Are they happy playing in this environment?

I can't answer these questions.

You still havent answered the question of why those two dogs would fight? 

You're trying to create an environment  that would force people to fight when their RP dictates they don't need to. 

I have no idea where your motivation is coming from for this.

 

  

2 hours ago, Iznazti said:

Yes we all like to sit in our Cabals and Do nothing.  I see many people do it.  Now perhaps their writing notes, but a Tier system or something similar may just give a player a reason to go hunt said big dog, being a big god themselves.

WHY? Why is anyone suddenly going to change their RP because they are now in a PK tier? 

What happens with Neutrals - they already have PK restrictions. 

What happens with Goods - they have PK restrictions.

Edited

33 minutes ago, Ulmusdorn said:

You still havent answered the question of why those two dogs would fight? 

You're trying to create an environment  that would force people to fight when their RP dictates they don't need to. 

I have no idea where your motivation is coming from for this.

 

  

WHY? Why is anyone suddenly going to change their RP because they are now in a PK tier? 

What happens with Neutrals - they already have PK restrictions. 

What happens with Goods - they have PK restrictions.

Like I said.  I can see that there are challenges.  It's tough, but I do think 🤔 something has to give.  If anyone has an ideas on how we can make it easier for new players to develop, and more fights between top tier characters.  Im all ears.  This is where my motivation is.  Making the mus a fun experience for all.

Edited

OK man, You are trying to solve TWO completely different issues with one solution. Break it down.

2 minutes ago, Iznazti said:

more fights between top tier characters.

This isn't a problem. What you consider 'top tier' players will fight whoever whenever - IF  their rp dictates it. I don't think we should be forcing ANYONE to break RP so we can see more top tier clashes. On the odd occasion that top tier players are on the same side, or ambivalent - we must instead be patient until someone rolls something to counter it. Two of the players in question are arguable two of the longest lived in the lands atm. We have quite a quick turn around for characters so for ones to last a year+ is unusual which is possibly adding to the situation and your angst.

2 minutes ago, Iznazti said:

how we can make it easier for new players

If new players REALLY want to learn the game, then why don't we add a new flag, like a NOBLE flag that shows them as a guild that will let everyone know, 'hey I'm new, but I'm learning. So come at me but maybe try and teach me something along the way to my death.' Or 'Walk me through this area and teach me something. I am really new.'

This would encourage learning, sharing and would still give them the full experience. I doubt ANYONE in our playerbase would act negatively towards these players.

ALSO: We could make it so the flag would not add to living weapons (malform + Sader weapons). That way they aren't fodder cause there is literally no point. 

Flags could be removed at will by Immortals who decide the player is 'ready'.

28 minutes ago, Ulmusdorn said:

If new players REALLY want to learn the game, then why don't we add a new flag, like a NOBLE flag that shows them as a guild that will let everyone know, 'hey I'm new, but I'm learning. So come at me but maybe try and teach me something along the way to my death.' Or 'Walk me through this area and teach me something. I am really new.'

This would encourage learning, sharing and would still give them the full experience. I doubt ANYONE in our playerbase would act negatively towards these players.

ALSO: We could make it so the flag would not add to living weapons (malform + Sader weapons). That way they aren't fodder cause there is literally no point. 

Flags could be removed at will by Immortals who decide the player is 'ready'.

Now THIS is an idea.  You can even compound it with Journeyman or something so that it is clear what is going on and why they get an edge.  Or, make it an entire CABAL and put it under Herald or something.  As far as Cabal skills, give them things that help them learn like identify, locate object, wands, scrolls, staves and the like.  This way, they can have a community that is purposefully there for them to learn the ropes.  Anyone can join, literally, new or old players.  Also, giving them the Flag to not feed sader/malform/Avatar would be great.

The reason I suggest a cabal is because then you can have an RP centered reason for helping.  I suggested Herald because the Academy is focused around teaching.  What better place to have them learn?  I can't count the number of times some good purity cleric has asked my evil to locate an item for them or help them with something.  At least in a Cabal you have an RP reason for helping by furthering the cabal.  Currently, you have to find some OOC way around it to help while trying to not break RP.  Why on earth would a female drow cleric EVER help a male human who doesn't bow to lick her feet?

Edited

I'll spitball a cabal layout later. That's the only way to go about it in my opinion. Cabals are meant to be the last character design frontier. If we were to add this, we should consider it a type of tutorial. Tutorials should not give you everything and then some.

Edited

This is what I'm talking about.  This I want to see.

53 minutes ago, Iznazti said:

This is what I'm talking about.  This I want to see.

pffft. This is what IM talking about. God knows what you were going on about.

52 minutes ago, Ulmusdorn said:

pffft. This is what IM talking about. God knows what you were going on about.

Dude I build skyscrapers.  Don't expect me to be able to articulate anything.  I'm just tired of us feeding on the weak.  We are better then this!

Ok. So. I said I'd do something so I'm going to do it. Here goes.

 

[Institute] would be a cabal oriented on teaching PK. Designed around preparing it's members for the dangers of Aabahran, it boasts a large amount of utility and a moderate amount of special protections. Instead of gaining cabal skills as you proceed, you lose them. Ranks abilities are as follows. Promotions are gained by winning challenges or getting kills.

 

Initiate: increased duration of consumables. Wand/scroll/stave at 100%. Cannot loot items from player corpses. Permanent sanctuary. Cannot have more than 1 item looted from their corpses. 20 hit/Mana/move gain statically. Same rare restrictions as moderate tier. 10 bonus saves vs spell. 100 bonus ac. Cannot be bountied.

 

Neophate: increased duration of consumables. Wand/scroll/stave at 100%. Cannot loot items from player corpses. Cannot have more than 1 item looted from their corpses. 20 hit/Mana/move gain statically. Same rare restrictions as moderate tier. 10 bonus saves vs spell. 100 bonus ac. Cannot be bountied.

 

Practitioner: increased duration of consumables. Wand/scroll/stave at 100%. Cannot loot items from player corpses. Cannot have more than 1 item looted from their corpses. 20 hit/Mana/move gain statically. Same rare restrictions as moderate tier. Cannot be bountied.

 

Adept: increased duration of consumables. Wand/scroll/stave at 100%. Cannot loot items from player corpses. Cannot have more than 1 item looted from their corpses. Same rare restrictions as moderate tier. Cannot be bountied.

 

Instructor: increased duration of consumables. Wand/scroll/stave at 100%. Cannot loot items from player corpses. Cannot have more than 2 items looted from their corpses. Same rare restrictions as moderate tier. 

 

Headmaster: increased duration of consumables. Wand/scroll/stave at 100%.

 

 

Benchmarks for promotion:

Initiate to Neophate: 5 wins total

Neophate to Practitioner: 10 wins total

Practitioner to Adept: 15 wins total

Adept to Instructor: 22 wins total

Instructor to Headmaster: 30 wins total

 

 

This way, sitting at lower ranks does not reward or even allow for rare hoarding. It also does not circumvent FL being dangerous, it just makes it less dangerous. It provides incentive to rank (or rather, let's greed be the incentive to rank). It provides away to ease into the threats that face normal characters. It still has some leftover bonuses at the end to continue to hone your skills as a PKer.

I love this!

Also add locate object, identity, bardic lore (all ranks), and have the cabal items add the following affects (one each): detect_magic, protection, detect_invis, sense_motion

Edited

1 minute ago, Lloth said:

affects (one each): detect_magic, protection, detect_invis, sense_motion

This might not help them.  This may make them never want to leave.

1 minute ago, Iznazti said:

This might not help them.  This may make them never want to leave.

Might, but considering the only one not readily available from consumables they get a duration boost on is sense_motion, and it's largely irrelevant at the highest tiers of PK outside a few pocket scenarios...

 

I don't think it overcomes the incentive to rise up in the cabal. Greed is a powerful motivator. Even new players want the shiniest.

I think this will be super helpful.  We gotta give players that wish to learn the game a safe space to do it.

Also consider that church is a wet dream for moderate tier.

With cabal equipment being nonrare, and church getting an additional 4 owner only items that are superior to any other item in their slots (save armorcraft saders), that leaves only a small number of rares to worry about. And can certainly have nonrares used in those slots and still do well.

22 minutes ago, Lloth said:

 

Initiate to Neophate: 5 wins total

Neophate to Practitioner: 10 wins total

Practitioner to Adept: 15 wins total

Adept to Instructor: 22 wins total

Instructor to Headmaster: 30 wins total

 

 

This way, sitting at lower ranks does not reward or even allow for rare hoarding. It also does not circumvent FL being dangerous, it just makes it less dangerous. It provides incentive to rank (or rather, let's greed be the incentive to rank). It provides away to ease into the threats that face normal characters. It still has some leftover bonuses at the end to continue to hone your skills as a PKer.

I would add a few things to Initiate and neophate.  If only one item can be looted, then they should not be able to hold more than 2 unique items.  8 unique items is a huge deal in terms of hoarding.  Once they get equal to the moderate tier in terms of looting, I'm game for them holding onto uniques.

That's certainly doable.

I am pretty new, I showed up and attacked someone and died day three or four. I was then asked by multiple people and heard people in voice chat on discord ask me what my problem is, or what I was about. Since when I showed up I made it clear I did not care much for PK, but people did not care or pay attention to the fact that I played God Wars for almost three years and was pretty fine with PK, I just wanted more RP than most Pk oriented muds offered. But the player base and some of the staff did not apparently think that I was open to learn and "try" the Pk out, but the community really soured my first experience with it, so I have not bothered to try again.

The purpose of that story was to let everyone know that if you want more new players actually looking to learn to PK it does not matter how many changes are made to the system without a community mind set change. That is not an insult, just my opinion on it, most players here seem to be either favoring Pk or at least view Pk and RP equally, so I understand the want of getting like minded players, but in my experience this game is already a pretty Niche market of mud players, I do not mean you wont get more players just that the base you are targeting without changes to the game is small, and that needs to be taken into account and the staff and players need to have realistic expectations.

That being said, I like the idea of being able to join a cabal, I've seen plenty of players with fancy flags next to their names and would not mind being able to join one, my personal suggestion for this is maybe make it so you can join before 50, as I am on character #4 and have yet to reach 44 let alone 50, so being able to join at 15 or 30 might see the cabal get more use.

Second I think the cabal either needs to do away with the moderate equipment restrictions, but maybe keep the unique restriction? I do not know what that is so someone else will be better suited to say if this is a good idea or not. I say this for no other reason than the fact that universally I have been told by players and some immortals to avoid Moderate, some players said to play whatever I wanted too but to make sure that I avoided moderate since I would forever be severally gimped. Maybe the staff and some of the players in this thread view it differently, but my discord messages would argue that the majority of players actively discourage the use of this tier, so doubling down on that system sounds like a bad way to go. It is either that or the staff and players need to have a heart to heart and figure out what should/should not be recommend to new players since a lot of players seem to think or at least tell people moderate is not worth the time to play.

I have heard of cabal equipment, never having been in cabal I am not exactly sure what this means, but maybe it would be possible to make equipment and enough of it so that players can equip themselves either completely in it or at least enough of it to finish off a set of equipment after they hit the rare limit from moderate whatever that is, and make the gear better than other level 50 non-rare equipment but slightly worse than rare equipment. Or maybe make it so that as they progress in ranks they loose access to some of the equipment, could make the cost of it rather cheap for example, but have it all be rotdeath like the merchant equipment currently is, so that once you progress past the first tier you now can't purchase a couple of pieces and continue this until the rare restriction is removed so that at that point they can't buy any. I do not know if that is possible or not, someone who is familiar with the systems will have to let me know.

I did not say this to offend anyone here, and if I did offend someone I am sorry for that, this is just from my experience a few things that jump out at me.