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Integrated Paths (Berserker) 2.0

Bert, having fully customizable pk classes as you described is not really "fully customizable". All you are doing is allowing everyone to choose spells and skills from the entire skill list and letting them choose the best combo they want. With only so many skills imaginable, the combos will eventually get really stale and old fast.

You said that it is fairly easy to construct tactics if you know how to play your class, yet I still find every pk is a new experience with tactics i have never seen or thought of, let alone know how to counter against. And I have been playing for six years plus.

I am not trying to attack your post, but mixing customizable classes while maintaining RP is not going to happen without causing the integrity of the pk system from falling apart.

There are still many skills that vampires in the past have not used against my characters which current ones use and surprise the hell out of me. And psionicists, pshhh, all I know is that I got owned everytime I had to fight one.

I don't like this idea. This is due to the fact that (as Aeva points out) there are many other MUDs with fully customisible builds for each class. No two end up the same.

One of the BIG attractions for me with FL was no remorts, each class was unique in its skills and spells. If you wanted hellstream you were an invoker - you weren't a lvl 50 3 x remorted warrior who had hellstream, dirt kick, fourth attacks and so on.

Take this away I feel would be a large mistake.

L-A While I like the idea of minor modification to classes (like we have in some of our classes already), L-A is on the money.

If you had read this thread, you'd know that this idea is nothing like 'choose all your skills and get the best combo'.

It also has nothing to do with remorting.

Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, the customizability is quite a bit -less- than what Crusaders have now.

Comeon people!

edit: to be very clear: This system doesn't allow classes any skills they don't already have. It does allow for specialization within that base class skillset.

I love how people don't listen. Every class will still be how they are now. The only thing that changes is how deep into the parts of the class do they want to go. The only problem with this is, For Example all melee classes will be able to strengthen their dual wield skill to "MASTERY" if they want. Doing this will take away a blademasters specialty in ignoring weight restrictions on the weapons they dual wield with bladework. Unless blademasters(as a class) are automatically given mastery of dual wield/bladework and without it counting as one of your 5 selectable thingies. There are quite a few skills that will follow suit but if mastery is given to the classes automatically that can already achieve the bonus then it will hopefully workout.

Doing this will take away a blademasters specialty in ignoring weight restrictions on the weapons they dual wield with bladework. Unless blademasters(as a class) are automatically given mastery of dual wield/bladework and without it counting as one of your 5 selectable thingies.

Right, just like berserkers don't need to use a choice on fast healing to get regeneration in my example.

Right' date=' just like berserkers don't need to use a choice on fast healing to get regeneration in my example. [/quote']

Exactly! Get out your blunt object and just bash me over the head already...

Exactly! Get out your blunt object and just bash me over the head already...

did you just hit on Celerity?

I just want to play FL.Please do not change anything.Everything is fine as is.Just implement something new.But do not change anything,trust me it is pointless.

did you just hit on Celerity?

Maybe if we were ogres that would define me hitting on her. But hey, if thats how you do it... more power to you!

I love these changes, as listed above, by Celerity. Lot's of thought has gone into them, and everyone who claims that these changes just 'aren't' FL, can you give a reason why? Everyone keeps saying, "OMG remorting every class, that's not FL, that's another MUD."

I read through nearly every post by Cel on this post, and it's very apparent these aren't remorts. These are extensions on basic spells that usually have little to no use whatsoever. And those that do have use? Well, sooooo cool.

Count me +1 please.

Everyone, please reread the first post in this thread. No, don't skim it. No, don't skip it because it you think you understand the 'gist' of it. Just actually take a couple of minutes to read about an idea I've spent hours and hours designing for this game.

You might be surprised how many of these questions and concerns are answered there (half the time in clear, bold font). With the length of this thread (time and post-wise), it is easy to forget what my original goals and arguments were.

After you've done that, come back, post your thoughts, please give me some feedback.

It also has nothing to do with remorting.

Not that I ever said your idea did.

edit: to be very clear: This system doesn't allow classes any skills they don't already have. It does allow for specialization within that base class skillset.

Which, not to put too finer point on it, I think this proposed system is something that I'd NEVER want to see in FL. Lets be very clear here: This isn't some 'minor' change (you refer the change of balance within FL in your first post) - its a pretty major thing. The way you've set it out means that 'new' abilities eg parry master gives riposte damage to 'fill slots' in the new system. I cannot say how much I hate this idea. Even if we don't add new abilites I would still be against something that gave such sweeping changes to mulitple classes.

As I've said - I ended up at FL for the reason that each class was different. I liked the idea that each class did have defined skills. Those who say 'I just see XXXX class and know my tactics' can't PK. Pure and simple. Sure, you know some what what you need to do - but mostly PK will be about the reaction and what you do IN combat.

In FL, each class has skills/spells/songs which makes that class unique. Building on this we have the race which further define the classes. Within these constraints we are now able to devise tactics for certain race/class combination - some of which are universal to the class and some which are not.

Bear in mind, this is not some experienced player resisting change. I'm happy to entertain ideas (look at some of my berzerker threads) of changing races and/or classes. However, I think it should be confined to the class only when an issue has been identified. We had issues with rangers, berserkers, warriors etc and they were allowed a few 'new' things that spiced the class up. We didn't have issuse with invokers so they were left the same.

We don't have the massive issue across the board that requires a change like this. On the whole, FL is probably the most balanced its ever been in the sense of class power. There are some highs and lows (usually on qrace/class but these are given more power from the get-go) but for the most part its pretty good.

L-A

Not that I ever said your idea did.

Which, not to put too finer point on it, I think this proposed system is something that I'd NEVER want to see in FL. Lets be very clear here: This isn't some 'minor' change (you refer the change of balance within FL in your first post) - its a pretty major thing. The way you've set it out means that 'new' abilities eg parry master gives riposte damage to 'fill slots' in the new system. I cannot say how much I hate this idea. Even if we don't add new abilites I would still be against something that gave such sweeping changes to mulitple classes.

As I've said - I ended up at FL for the reason that each class was different. I liked the idea that each class did have defined skills. Those who say 'I just see XXXX class and know my tactics' can't PK. Pure and simple. Sure, you know some what what you need to do - but mostly PK will be about the reaction and what you do IN combat.

In FL, each class has skills/spells/songs which makes that class unique. Building on this we have the race which further define the classes. Within these constraints we are now able to devise tactics for certain race/class combination - some of which are universal to the class and some which are not.

Bear in mind, this is not some experienced player resisting change. I'm happy to entertain ideas (look at some of my berzerker threads) of changing races and/or classes. However, I think it should be confined to the class only when an issue has been identified. We had issues with rangers, berserkers, warriors etc and they were allowed a few 'new' things that spiced the class up. We didn't have issuse with invokers so they were left the same.

We don't have the massive issue across the board that requires a change like this. On the whole, FL is probably the most balanced its ever been in the sense of class power. There are some highs and lows (usually on qrace/class but these are given more power from the get-go) but for the most part its pretty good.

L-A

Bravo. I agree completely.

Bert, having fully customizable pk classes as you described is not really "fully customizable". All you are doing is allowing everyone to choose spells and skills from the entire skill list and letting them choose the best combo they want. With only so many skills imaginable, the combos will eventually get really stale and old fast.

You said that it is fairly easy to construct tactics if you know how to play your class, yet I still find every pk is a new experience with tactics i have never seen or thought of, let alone know how to counter against. And I have been playing for six years plus.

I am not trying to attack your post, but mixing customizable classes while maintaining RP is not going to happen without causing the integrity of the pk system from falling apart.

There are still many skills that vampires in the past have not used against my characters which current ones use and surprise the hell out of me. And psionicists, pshhh, all I know is that I got owned everytime I had to fight one.

You misunderstood my post, and it doesn't seem like you even really read Celerity's idea.

Customizable classes != invokers with dirt kick.

Reread Celerity's post. From the replies I've seen almost all of you should.

Really!?!?!? Invokers w/ dirt kick! COOOLL!! [/sarcasm]

Not that I ever said your idea did.

Then your examples had nothing to do with this idea or your points? Why would you use them?

Which' date=' not to put too finer point on it, I think this proposed system is something that I'd [b']NEVER want to see in FL. Lets be very clear here: This isn't some 'minor' change (you refer the change of balance within FL in your first post) - its a pretty major thing. The way you've set it out means that 'new' abilities eg parry master gives riposte damage to 'fill slots' in the new system. I cannot say how much I hate this idea. Even if we don't add new abilites I would still be against something that gave such sweeping changes to mulitple classes.

I get the point that you hate it. You just wrote an entire paragraph telling us all the depth of your emotion. You forgot to tell us why. Or would your reasoning be: I hate it because it is a sweeping change?

As I've said - I ended up at FL for the reason that each class was different. I liked the idea that each class did have defined skills. Those who say 'I just see XXXX class and know my tactics' can't PK. Pure and simple. Sure' date=' you know some what what you need to do - but mostly PK will be about the reaction and what you do [b']IN combat.

Let me get this straight. You came to FL because each class/race combo has defined skills. You came here for predictability. You are also saying that people who develop and plan tactics/builds to fight those skills "can't PK, pure and simple".

Well, I hate to try to bust your rock hard princess shell, but guess what, prep is everything in PK in FL. Getting the right eq, joining the right cabal, choosing the right race, training, consumables---this is all prep. I don't think Mindflayer's Kurvikhel was stronger than any other necromancer simply because he timed his in combat acid blasts better than other necros.

Speaking of PK experience. You are always quick to tout your own experience and skill---but what do you actually have? Have you had any notable chars since early 2.0 (that DK wasn't even that notable)? Tell us all some of your recent 50s. Do you even play this game?

But, let's assume that you are right. Let's just say that PK is focused on the in combat commands more than prep and builds.

Then we would need to talk about your inconsistency. You came here because you wanted to know what each class/race combo can do. You hate surprises. You loved the predictability of FL. But now, you are saying that PK is all about reacting to changing situations in combat. Tactical adjustments to the changing fight. Which one do you want? Do you want combat with surprises that causes you to use some reflex and adjust your tactics? Do you want predictable builds that focus on planning more than in combat action? You are being completely inconsistent here.

Lucky for you, my idea expands on BOTH aspects here.

In FL, each class has skills/spells/songs which makes that class unique. Building on this we have the race which further define the classes. Within these constraints we are now able to devise tactics for certain race/class combination - some of which are universal to the class and some which are not.

OK. So now you are back to saying that devising tactics is important again. Didn't you JUST say that tactics do not make PK?

Yes, of course all classes have skills that make them unique. You add on the 'superficial' layer of race and we have our current stat-grinding pk system. Instead of devising tactics based on a simple class decision, why not expand it to a per-character system? Sure, you know generally how berserkers will fight, but you won't know exactly what Jim has up his sleeve for you. This kind of system promotes tactics, planning, reflex, and all the other prime skills of PK.

Bear in mind, this is not some experienced player resisting change.

Really? I could have sworn your first major point was that you hate it because it is change. And, once again, are you even a player here?

We don't have the massive issue across the board that requires a change like this. On the whole, FL is probably the most balanced its ever been in the sense of class power. There are some highs and lows (usually on qrace/class but these are given more power from the get-go) but for the most part its pretty good.

Again, in many of my posts, I was emphasizing that I am not trying to adjust class vs class balance. I am trying to adjust class/race/cabal/eq vs class/race/cabal/eq balance AND add a massive RP and tactical element to the game. Because, as you said, there are many more layers to be taken into account instead of just 'class'. We can't just simplify it to saying that if class vs class balance is ok, game balance is ok.

Even if total game balance is ok, which it is not, we can't just stop innovating and let ourselves stagnate. The RP possibilities alone are worth the idea.

So, harden up princess and make a real character.

You misunderstood my post, and it doesn't seem like you even really read Celerity's idea.

Customizable classes != invokers with dirt kick.

Reread Celerity's post. From the replies I've seen almost all of you should.

No Bert, I did read Celerity's post. I also read yours.

IMO the overall idea has merit, but I would hate to see FL go down this line of thought. All this does is to further increase the distance in pk-ability between the vets and the new players because VETS will STILL know exactly which skills they should master for which classes and now races.

Giving berserkers the ability to have a warrior's master lore? I honestly don't see that logic.

[Edit]

Again' date=' in many of my posts, I was emphasizing that I am not trying to adjust class vs class balance. I am trying to adjust class/race/cabal/eq vs class/race/cabal/eq balance AND add a massive RP and tactical element to the game.[/quote']

So let me get this straight you have every intention of adjusting the balance between class, race, cabal, and eq by breaking up skills into class and race specifically? You DO realize this is game changing for everyone and would probably require a pwipe if the Immortals thought of implementing it.

If you had read them, you'd know that berserkers can't get warrior lores.

If you had read them' date=' you'd know that berserkers can't get warrior lores. [/quote']

[B][U]*Detailed example selectable choices for berserker:[/U][/B]
[B]basic axe[/B]
--advanced axe (+2 avg damage)
--expert axe (+50% damage on first successful normal strike)
--master axe (halves target's ac for hit/dam calculation)
[B]basic dagger[/B]
--advanced dagger (add wound flag to weapon)
--expert dagger (dual parry bonus)
--master dagger (doublesheath/+3% dual parry)
[B]basic flail[/B]
--advanced flail (+3 hitroll/+5 damroll)
--expert flail (+1% second/third/fourth attack)
--master flail (mantis maul)
[B]basic mace[/B]
--advanced mace (+8 damroll)
--expert mace (+2 avg damage/+3 damroll)
--master mace (focused bash)
[B]basic polearm[/B]
--advanced polearm (+1% two handed/+1% parry)
--expert polearm (+20% charge round damage)
--master polearm (+1% two handed/+1% parry/+1% polearm)
[B]basic spear[/B]
--advanced spear (-40 AC/+3 hitroll/+2 damroll)
--expert spear (add sharp flag to weapon)
--master spear (backcutter)
[B]basic sword[/B]
--advanced sword (+3 hitroll/+3 damroll/-30 AC)
--expert sword (add sharp flag to weapon)
--master sword (feign)
[B]basic staff[/B]
--advanced staff (+1% staff)
--expert staff (-40 AC/+1% staff)
--master staff (+2%staff)
[B]basic hand to hand[/B]
--advanced hand to hand (chance of a lagging strike/+1 avg damage)
--expert hand to hand (allows parry/dual parry with hand to hand/+2 avg damage)
--master hand to hand (allows pugil with hand to hand/+3 avg damage)
[B]basic exotic[/B]
--advanced exotic (+5% disarm/offhand disarm/shield disarm/+2 hitroll)
--expert exotic (+2 hitroll/+1 avg damage/+2 luck/-25 AC)
--master exotic (weapon seize)
[B]basic two handed[/B]
--advanced two handed (+5 hitroll/+5 damroll)
--expert two handed (swing with two-handed weapons (if already swinging, +1 attack))
--master two handed (+3% two handed/+1 avg dam)
[B]basic shield block[/B]
--advanced shield block (can block arrows)
--expert shield block (shield block causes riposte damage)
--master shield block (auto shield bash)
[B]basic parry[/B]
--advanced parry (+2% parry)
--expert parry (+3% parry)
--master parry (parry causes riposte damage)
[B]basic dodge[/B]
--advanced dodge (+10 lag avoidance)
--expert dodge (50% chance to dodge thrown objects (cards/shurikens/etc))
--master dodge (25% to avoid all opening strikes)
[B]basic rage[/B]
--advanced rage (+25% rage hp bonus)
--master rage (dodge restored by 50%)
[B]basic enhanced damage[/B]
--advanced enhanced damage (+5 damroll)
--expert enhanced damage (+2 avg damage)
--master enhanced damage (+2 avg damage/+5 damroll)
[B]basic fast healing[/B]
--advanced fast healing (regeneration)
--master fast healing (halves duration of poison/plague/enfeeblement)
[B]basic meditation[/B]
--advanced meditation (trance)
--master meditation (resist charm spells)
[B]basic attack[/B]
--advanced attack (second attack)
--expert attack (third attack)
--master attack (fourth attack)
[B]basic dual wield[/B]
--advanced dual wield (may choose to strike with only primary or offhand)
--master dual wield (may dual wield objects of same weight)
[B]basic charge[/B]
--advanced charge (may charge and attack (like minotaurs))
--master charge (may charge in combat to push an enemy into another room)
[B]basic trip[/B]
--advanced trip (trip causes moderate damage)
--master trip (+1 enemy size when calculating lag duration)
[B]basic bodyslam[/B]
--advanced bodyslam (bodyslam may cause the thunderclap effect)
--master bodyslam (+3% bodyslam)
[B]basic berserk[/B]
--advanced berserk (no ac/moves penalty)
--master berserk (+5 hitroll/+5 damroll/+100 hp)
[B]basic warcry[/B]
--advanced warcry (+5 hitroll/-5 svs. vs. spell)
--master warcry (+5 hitroll/+5 damroll/warcry affects groupmembers)
[B]basic lore[/B]
--advanced lore (can see extra flags (hitroll/damroll/etc))
--master lore (as identify spell)
[B]basic weapon cleave[/B]
--advanced weapon cleave (may cleave offhand weapons)
--master weapon cleave (adds burnproof flag to weapon)
[B]basic shield cleave[/B]
--advanced shield cleave (causes major damage on success)
--expert shield cleave (negates burnproof shieldblock for one tick) 
[B]basic relax[/B]
--advanced relax (may relax from path of fury)
--master relax (may relax from path of devastation)
[B]basic double grip[/B]
--advanced double grip (+3% two handed)
--master double grip (powergrip)
[B]basic haymaker[/B]
--advanced haymaker (skull crusher)
--master haymaker (haymaker causes thunderclap/+25% protective shield penetration chance)
[B]basic headbutt[/B]
--advanced headbutt (causes thunderclap effect)
--master headbutt (ignores protective shield)
[B]basic haggle[/B]
--advanced haggle (haggles twice and takes the best result)
--master haggle (ignore bank/locker fees)
[B]basic swing[/B]
--advanced swing (can swing out of rage)
--master swing (all attacks swing (bash/haymaker/charge/etc)*(can enable/disable at will))

So far I have counted in YOUR list: Feign, focused bash, mantis maul, doublesheath, weapon seize, and backcutter.

Dude if your a zerk you can't get focused bash, for one you have bodyslam, two you can't bash, thats for warriors. Plain and simple your not going to get skills that your class doesn't already use. What I mean is you named all the weapon skills that are given as masteries from the weapons a berserker can already learn. All this is doing is improving that knowledge or giving you the chance to in a small way.