Werebeast Idea

Thats why I have been confused.

Special attacks do not go off weapon damage from my experience.

Charge a giant with a magic sword, charge gets lower damage than first attack.

Special attacks Should look at weapon material in my opinion.

Actually a full vuln on a race that peaks around 650-750 HP before equipment whom 'for the most part' play mages and have no defenses would be over the top. Vuln weapons 'from my knowledge' were origionally made for these smaller races to encourage melee class selection in order to compete with the larger, stronger and healthier races.

1 hour ago, Lloth said:

Respectfully disagree. It wouldn't take much to make it a full vuln. Drow and elves are in a good spot where they are at. So are werebeasts, for that matter. Having the middle ground prevents use of many good weapon choices and gives utility to edging for that material. A full vuln would require heavy compensation.

Disagreeing with which part, exactly? My point was that the case of iron/mithril/etc not hitting vulns when used as normal weapons wasn't an active balance decision but instead a holdover from previous MUDs.

Whoever initially made the vuln system probably went through the existing damtypes and assigned them to whatever vulns they created. As more vulns/damtypes were added over time by various implementers to the evolving codebase that led to FL, people stop assigning some of them to vulns.

Thus, whoever put in the 'thorns' damtype was probably not the same person who created a 'wood' vuln or thought it wasn't important to connect the two.

There wasn't ever much of a thought on balance in the whole process because it occurred over several generations of MUDs, most of which probably didn't even have PK at all.

It certainly wasn't designed this way though, due to the consistency and roundabout way of achieving the current implementation's 'goal' of balance. There are clearer and easier ways to do the same thing, like I pointed out in the last post. Nobody has seen the need to update and clean this stuff up because it generally works out as is.

Why does the vuln system exist like it does? Not because of balance, but because it works and not important enough to change.

Saying that it is because of balance implies that there was an intentional balance reason to separate material and melee vulns which simply isn't true. The state of balance is not in the design of separating of the vulns but instead in the inability to hit that vuln in melee. This doesn't require the separation of certain damtypes from hitting vulns as currently implemented (since you can already control it on the weapon level by not making any such weapons with that damtype). The separation 'feature' is actually just an oversight and thus superfluous.

edit:

There is the small case of wanting a certain weapon to zap a race to keep them from using it but also not wanting that weapon to hurt the race when used against them in melee. An iron sword that elves can't use, but the builder doesn't want that sword to do vuln damage to elves. This is accomplished already because materials aren't linked to damtypes.

More recently, coders have added things like the fire giant bonus. This bonus draws from the material type OR the damtype to determine if the fire giant gets a bonus with that weapon. The solar grasp, made of fire does bonus ray (light, not fire) damage for a fire giant but a power staff (also rays, but a non-fire material) does not. This same system could be reversed and applied to vulns, and it probably should, but would require going back and making material <--> damtype relations consistent and intentional. Again, which they should be, but would be a decent amount of work for not a lot of gain.

Although, I have advocated for a consistent material system going forward to avoid these issues. Materials should be selected from a list, not written freehand by the builder. That way you can ensure that material to effect capabilities are as intended AND it gives some definition to what a material type is. Ash is wood, right? Does the game recognize that? Either we can code all types of wood in the universe and fictional universes OR we don't make ash an option (instead allowing just 'wood') OR we simply accept the inconsistency and lack of control. :P Unfortunately, that idea was...not looked very well upon by the top IMP at the time.

10 hours ago, Unknown Criminal said:

Actually a full vuln on a race that peaks around 650-750 HP before equipment whom 'for the most part' play mages and have no defenses would be over the top.

While I agree with most of the statement, mages have more survivability than melees/hybrids.

If you are a mage and get hugely outdamaged, you can flee/recall (in the middle of the combat)/teleport (even when blind) and live to fight another day.

If you are a class that can be lagged and get hugely outdamaged by a giant melee, you're dead. Simple as that.

So with this in mind, playing a race that is a not a giant and has big and easily exploitable vuln is more punishing as a melee than a mage.

4 hours ago, f0xx said:

playing a race that is a not a giant and has big and easily exploitable vuln is more punishing as a melee than a mage.

Except they'd more than likely get more than 1 defense with limited weapon options and a capped parry skill.

@WadeWhy would you try and make a counter argument to an obviously true statement?

@f0xxis absolutely correct. As a melee/hybrid (non bard) you will be subjected to laglock scenarios. Period.

You will eventually be laglocked if you play the character out.

I understand many frustrations the casters have, I play them too.

But in this, you come across as baiting more than making a valid argument.

This thread has revealed some very good information for players, getting an informative thread locked by facetiousness is aggravating to those trying to learn.

So lets all just be civil and learn.