One other point I think is relevant is that gatekeeping excludes the binge player in the sense that there is no equivalency of game hours when compared short term and long term.
A character with X hours spread over two months is not equivalent to a character with equal hours played over 3 days.
In all other games, even multiplayer RPG's, what matters is time spent interacting with the world.
A character with 60 hours spread out over 2 months will be caballed, qraced, and moving up in the world.
A character with 60 hours spent over 3 days will probably not have made it past dcheck, and will certainly not be caballed or qraced.
This is a disincentive for binge play when, say, a service member returns from a stint overseas, or a student has a week off between classes, or someone is on maternity/paternity leave.
Automation of end-game content will equalize hours spent interacting with the world. Whether the hours are achieved over time or over a few days will be irrelevant.
I also think this time equivalency concept, when joined with freeing up cabal leadership and quest races, will make the game more dangerous and more fun. If Watchers have 0 members, the potential for a binge player to put the time in on the short term, gain a q race, and grab the leadership spot is scary as hell... but could also be really really fun on both sides of the battle.
There are some very good thoughts in this thread and some very...questionable ones.
I'm of the opinion if an algorithm can do it, a human shouldn't be doing it. Single player games are fully automated. Does it mean you get things for free? No.
If you can come up with an algorithm worthy of replacing a human on a decision, I'm all for it. Otherwise, I'm not. I'd want to see what the suggestion is exactly.
There are lots of things that could be easily and successfully automated, many of them quality of life improvements, a few of them important to progression in FL. There are many more things that would be a significant challenge to automate and I'd really consider carefully before doing so.
We can chat about generalities forever, but until somebody sits down and offers concrete numbers or methods, not much will be accomplished. I don't think the staff has the will to work in this direction at this time (or it would have been done by now). Maybe a thread such as this one could help motivate the staff for a short time, but as a contributor to countless such threads, I can tell you that the effect will likely be quite negligible.
I wholeheartedly disagree that the focus should be spent on appeasing retained players. It is true that we haven't had a single new retained player in several years (correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm curious). This is because our formula is simply wrong and the PK alphas have sorted out most everyone else from the playerbase long ago. To get new alphas, you need something for people to do, progression or otherwise, that they enjoy long enough to gain alpha PK skill. To get anything except hardcore PKers, you need tools for non-PK character development, of which we have nearly zero. Without non-PK progression and tasks, there is no room for player growth, and certainly not any retention.
Automating cabals will not solve this issue, although I'm an old advocate of no quest classes/races to prove their 'balance'. Games these days have survival elements, crafting, economies, construction and ownership, and other time sinks that occupy non PK types and provide them with presence and an anchor in the game. When your primary anchor in the game is your gear or your alpha PK reputation, obviously few players will be retained, and decreasing over time as the skill level rises (to zero, as it is now). The overall goal would be to create multiple means and end points for alphas, not just 1vs1 hardcore PK. This is the fundamental problem with FL's design.
One should ask themselves...what exciting things are going on? What can I be involved with that isn't a PK encounter? Why should I log on today? Why should come back to this game? Very few answers there. Sometimes, we have a new area to explore or some new political arrangement (which has no in game presense typically), and more often we have the promise of new ideas that seem to fizzle out pretty quickly (Volg's workshop quest line, for instance). Rarely, we might have a class revamp or other mechanical upgrade/tweak. The effects are noticeable to revitalizing players, but alone, these changes are just life support, not true progress.
Promises and dreams are cheap. If the tough problems can't be handled, the slack has to be made up in sheer content, even if it is as simple as aesthetically changing the same areas over and over. It is a dull, no skill job, but it is thus cheap and repeatable. Without a vibrant change log, one that can be maintained past 'surges' of activity a few times a year, the game won't make much progress, no matter how good anyone's ideas are. Even if the overall goal of the staff is simple maintenance (shame on your lack of ambition if it is!), the current rate of output is a losing one. This isn't the fault of any one group of staff members, but has been consistent over all groups of staff members, save the original developer.
Also, you guys are all completely wrong. The reason FL has trouble is because you don't have Celerity.
Promises and dreams are cheap. If the tough problems can't be handled, the slack has to be made up in sheer content, even if it is as simple as aesthetically changing the same areas over and over. It is a dull, no skill job, but it is thus cheap and repeatable. Without a vibrant change log, one that can be maintained past 'surges' of activity a few times a year, the game won't make much progress, no matter how good anyone's ideas are. Even if the overall goal of the staff is simple maintenance (shame on your lack of ambition if it is!), the current rate of output is a losing one. This isn't the fault of any one group of staff members, but has been consistent over all groups of staff members, save the original developer.
The difference in our approach, celerity, is that mine preserves the game for an eventual player base of 0. Even if the game was simply paid to be kept running and no imms existed all content would be accessible, essentially as it is today. If FL worked as a game then a single player could log on and achieve any path just by playing. Everything on top of that is spicy applesauce. I'm all for new players. But that is not what our performance indicates.
Also, our current system is not without abuse... Anume's position as leader of Nexus for several years is a great example of this. As much as I know it was not her conscious intention to do so, she benefited from immortal knowledge of her position. Not only that, her major worldplot was quite successful. An immortal approved and immortal played leader who happens to have an immortal mediated global plot and world change has the appearance of a conflict of interest.
In a free cabal world Thulgan's reign would have ended years earlier. Much respect to the character, but that's the truth of it.
Also, our current system is not without abuse... Anume's position as leader of Nexus for several years is a great example of this. As much as I know it was not her conscious intention to do so, she benefited from Immortal knowledge of her position. Not only that, her major worldplot was quite successful. An Immortal approved and immortal played leader who happens to have an Immortal mediated global plot and world change has the appearance of a conflict of interest.
In a free cabal world thulgans reign would have ended years earlier. Much respect to the character, but that's the truth of it.
Knowing this fact, was actually the number one thing that drove me away from FL 3-4 years ago. As soon as I found out the truth of the matter, I was over it. Thats too small a sandbox for me. Thulgan ran around and stomped most of the pbase for like.... 5 years. Heavily rewarded, and made leader by her Imm char. Sort of took the wind out of my sails despite all the endless waiting in game for things I wanted to achieve.
There is a lot of skill required for a head builder to balance things mechanically, have some kind of strategic direction, work ethic, some ability to mesh very different systems together, a tiny bit of scripting skill and some people management skills. A good head builder has the most demanding job in this kind of game, but usually many of the head builder's true duties fall to the coder. The head builder is responsible for the designing and overall implementation of all content (from concept to rebalancing). The coder is responsible for the processes that make the designer's dreams come to life and otherwise keeps the game technically operational. The head of staff keeps the community and staff pieces working together while the other two do their bit.
For builders though, the main skill required is basic literacy and finishing the job (due to the dullness part, it causes burnout quickly). It can be done by a competent 12 year old.
Knowing this fact, was actually the number one thing that drove me away from FL 3-4 years ago. As soon as I found out the truth of the matter, I was over it. Thats too small a sandbox for me. Thulgan ran around and stomped most of the pbase for like.... 5 years. Heavily rewarded, and made leader by her Imm char. Sort of took the wind out of my sails despite all the endless waiting in game for things I wanted to achieve.
To be fair I believe she tried to separate her position as imm from her position as leader and player. That is, other imms must have promoted her and worked with her character for change. But that does not resolve the conflict. I do think imms should be able to experience characters to their fullest potential. Player-led cabals eliminate the appearance of a conflict of interest. I believe that other Nexus leaders would have emerged by virtue of voting the leader down during much of that time. But since leaders are sanctioned by imms their positions are also upheld by imms, and it is essentially a permanent position short of coup.
If a character is just logging in every now and then and there are others in line for leadership, the situation should resolve itself through player led political processes in any given faction.
In a free cabal world? Anyone at any time could have created a character to to coup Thulgan.
I am not sure why you feel the need to make your point on the back of someone who has kept this mud going for a very long time. Not paid time... Personal time to invest in your enjoyment.
My post is not made on the back of anyone. It is a simple statement of fact that the arrangement had the appearance of a conflict of interest. I have explicitly stated that I respect the character and that I do not believe she had the intention to benefit from her status. In the real world, as in FL, ethics issues often happen in that grey area where people mean well yet process creates a problem. The fact is that an immortal held a leadership position that was granted by another immortal which resulted in coded pk benefits. Imho even in Nexus and syndicate a vote of no confidence in leadership should end in demotion. If coup enables that ex leader to regain their status, so be it. There are plenty of cases in history where despots have been exiled either through violence or through pressure. Personally, I would have loved the story of reavers joining together to politically reject thulgan resulting in expulsion. Thulgan would have had to follow the in-game mechanism to regain cabal membership by gaining favor of members or fighting his way back up. The point is none of that is possible since leaders are selected or deposed only based on immortal involvement, restricting rp and creating the appearance of favoritism.
I am discussing issues around a game that I have also contributed to and that has shaped your enjoyment... And that I have paid to keep running.
No reason to be defensive here. As noted, this is a design flaw and not strictly a behavioral issue.
Firstly. That took ages to read, but it had some really good thoughts in there and some that weren't as flash (imo but I've been known to be wrong in the past).
12 hours ago, Mali said:
Preparing for a transition where the game could function for an independent player would be a great example of good stewardship.
But it doesn't have to be radicalized. A step by step approach would be preferred, as mentioned by others above, starting with freeing up cabal systems and qraces and then moving forward. Destroy the vendettas and let cabals mold based on their membership. Do these and I'll make a character tomorrow.
I'm not completely against that idea - implementation is easy I think. I would handle it in this manner: All cabal vendettas and alliances at this point remain the same. Remove hard coded vendettas - you lot sort it from there... You want to move from a V --> A then follow the process, do the work.
12 hours ago, Kyzarius said:
everything in this game now that the pbase has shrunk a bit is even more about end game. So lets let the end game flow!
unlock all qclass/race so you can just go do the quest if you meet the req. - Is there the possibility that there is a better process around making this a smoother transition? Very very likely. Do I think complete automation is the right way? No.
make vamp a lvl 50 remort and not a lvl 30 class.
2. buff shaman, make them q class
3. buff healers, same, q class
4. druids I dont think need much of one, but hell make them in line with q classes as well.
make cabal entry automated, you hit 50 while in a clan you can run a quest to join the cabal once you meet some mechanical requirements like clan quests numbers, or a pk or two.
make number of clan quests youve done visible to you. - What happens if player A pinns in a 24 hour period, enters a cabal and then decides to play a completely different char. Will we get cabal traffic jams?
Make cabal promotions more fluid.
5 hour timer instead of 10 - Not against this at all.
auto promote to trusted if no other high ranks - Why not just make the first 4 joiners auto to T - members there after are promoted by vote created by current T's.
carry this out to E. Make L an election process. Or if suitable a duel process for WM. - Elder = running a cabal pretty much. Trust me I am 100% for this, but so very few people have the capacity for the responsibility to do this unmonitored. We have to remember that we are working on creating an environment that makes the game enjoyable for everyone. Higher ranked cabal members have a responsibility to make it fun for less experienced players.
Invent MORE q classes, q races. - I think we are currently looking at putting the shine back into those classes that are lacking - Necro's for an example.
Make Tattoos a quest for each religion, visit your shrine do the quest get the tattoo for your devotion. Everyone could have one, why is this so locked away...it is fun! - Just nah. The only way this works is if tats are completely revamped. A lot of them are VERY powerful and you couldn't just unleash all that. You'll all be crying about Kotrag in about 10 minutes. ;)
make edges selectable at 10, 20, 30, 50. with one of the new necklaces given at 50. - Um no. Edges are a reward for content enrichment. There is almost absolutely NOTHING preventing you from never having more then 10 RP points your entire characters life.
You can lock Edges that allow people to get extra damage VS qraces so that those races cant have any of them.
This would incentivise people to play a "basic" warrior for example and go about slaying qraces.
RP point system is awesome in some ways, but really its just a huge time sink. - False. You do NOT have to write a single journal. Sorry to single you out IVESIANNA but you have something like RP points after very very few journals. All through IG interactions and forum logs (there is no better way of recording it then forum logs at this stage I guess).
IMMS then, enforce aligns, enforce religion dedication especially for those with tattoos, watch for abuse of course.
Make Cabal gear owner only. - why?
Things like Kreyis should always be in game, bring more of these.
Reward RP with tangible things, like owner only items more often.
All this owner only stuff will get people to stop being such bitches about losing some gear. - Wear a blue flag then.
You make these kinds of changes, the ones that can be implemented immediately, as a test. let it run a month! I bet you get WAY more participation. Half the reason people pm me and say they gave up on this or that is because of the time commitment.
11 hours ago, Fireman said:
I will say that I am not for Qraces/classes being automated. I DO enjoy that aspect of RP with the IMMs of the chosen religion. I think it adds a flare to it, but I would like to see a work around to the wait time that some people experience.
Having been tattooed twice(I'm counting Belderon's.) I enjoyed the RP I got from it. That being said, Volgathras made the first one feel so special.. where did he go btw? Just up and left..
These rare little bits have been some of the best parts of my time at FL. Working your way through all the mystery is probably the reason we all still play here. If I had it all already, in all honestly I probably would have left years ago.
11 hours ago, Zavero said:
While I think some things could be automated and make it a more fun/better game overall, I think there are some things that should be left to mystery. I'll use tattoos for example... they are rare. I have never even seen one. So perhaps they should be less rare, but I don't want to see every person walking around with one. It cheapens the experience of getting one and having it. Because that shows someone really has devotion to a character.
I am not suggesting don't automate tattoos, simply that there should be some things left to application or immortal discretion to reward players who go above and beyond.
Agreed - it shouldn't be THAT rare.
8 hours ago, Mali said:
RP point case study: Rhodan, who had close if not more than 150 hours in game and spent most of his time roleplaying only collected 48 RP points.
That's equivalent to spending 3/4 of a month playing as a full time job, or playing 7 days straight with no sleep. A full half month of the waking hours of my life. This is equivalent to .32 points an hour and it is dumb. The RP point award/effort ratio does not encourage my continued engagement. Nor do I enjoy applying for points. Since this is an RP enforced mud, the assumption is a positive correlation between time and roleplay. If someone isn't roleplaying, it can be looked into, but as it is we are asked to prove that it did occur. Micromanagement is not something I consider as recreation.
Lloth nailed it. TBH in future I would suggest making a new forum account in the name of your Char that way you can record logs.
In no world or time (now or in the future) will I believe you should earn RP points for sitting in your cabal alone. Thats not RP.
2 hours ago, Mali said:
To be fair I believe she tried to separate her position as imm from her position as leader and player. That is, other imms must have promoted her and worked with her character for change. But that does not resolve the conflict. I do think imms should be able to experience characters to their fullest potential. Player-led cabals eliminate the appearance of a conflict of interest. I believe that other Nexus leaders would have emerged by virtue of voting the leader down during much of that time. But since leaders are sanctioned by imms their positions are also upheld by imms, and it is essentially a permanent position short of coup.
If a character is just logging in every now and then and there are others in line for leadership, the situation should resolve itself through player led political processes in any given faction.
Suggesting that us as immortals cannot play the game because we are staff will remove 40% of the current player base. The reason we staff here is because we play here.
Not only that but Thulgan was a TITAN. His RP and PK were amazing. Had any player achieved the same standard, oh and plenty have just look at any of Cel's chars or Trick's more recent chars or whatever garbage f0xx is playing atm (jks), they would of had similar results.
EDIT: On a side note. What does everyone see RP points as? A boost for PK abilities?
As far as tattoos go, I've seen some very, very large gaps in how they are given out. Kahnt, for instance, had a pretty stellar RP experience and received his from just this one encounter. I'm not discrediting it nor am I trying to tarnish that for the player or IMM that did it. Then you have other players that go through the process of attempting to live up to that standard, submit logs, accomplish things in game, then send an application and still wait for an approval/disapproval.
That inconsistency is discouraging. I think that is where a lot of these accusations of favoritism come from. Someone gets something extremely fast while someone else waits an extended period of time and still might not get it.
The Staff were players at one point too, so I know you guys understand where we are coming from. Hell, I've had conversations with @Erelei on AIM back in the day when he was player about these exact things, haha.
This is likely not a popular opinion but I dont like Rp points.
I dont like how they affect pk balance, but that is only a minor thing.
I mostly dont like how it makes people act, interactions seem forced, encounters seem fake, they don't feel genuine because you know at the very least they're doing it for the points. Not to say that people only Rp for the points but it is definitely a strong reason.
I'm with @Mali, I hardly ever submit logs. I know @Ulmusdorn is swamped with them too. Does this mean I dont Rp? Not at all, I Rp if it feels natural, if my character has a genuine reason to interact, he will.
I also don't like how vague the edges helpfiles are, the creation perks are a great example of how to do it. The wiki for character perks is perfect, the helpfiles are far too vague. I recently made an artificier battlemage and it did nothing, I misinterpreted the toys part of the description in that it would help my dancing blade. I dont think people should be punished for lack of information.
I'm with @Mali, I hardly ever submit logs. I know @Ulmusdorn is swamped with them too.
I think we should all take a moment to ne extremely appreviative of how much time and effort Ulmusdorn puts into monitoring and rewarding these. The sheer volume of logs submitted makes it an impressive feat in of itself. Often times hours of reading and correlating information.
On logs. Kudos to @Ulmusdornfor having to trudge through countless hours of logs.
Personally, I find it is SOOO much easier to acquire RP points through action than journals. I realize playstyles vary. For some of you cutting, pasting, editing, gets the RP points for you. For me, LIVE and IN LIVING COLOR works best.
As for @Ulmusdorn and his querry, I see RP points as an avenue for me a mortal being to have access to godlike powers of creation. One of the nice perks to being immortal is getting to create your own outfit. Always annoying to the existing immortals, as they work hard to redit a room, the new god comes in and attacks, "Look at my new mace, there has never been a mace like this before." And the elder turns and says "Let me guess, it slices?" The new god sighs. All the Immortals laugh! So the ability to mold existing evenvnum and mold it into my own personal oddvenum is what RP points represent to me. Not power, not prestige, not fame or fortune, just limitless creativity, and I bless the person who created this system.
I think we should all take a moment to ne extremely appreviative of how much time and effort Ulmusdorn puts into monitoring and rewarding these. The sheer volume of logs submitted makes it an impressive feat in of itself. Often times hours of reading and correlating information.
Suggesting that us as immortals cannot play the game because we are staff will remove 40% of the current player base. The reason we staff here is because we play here.
What I said was "I do think imms should be able to experience characters to their fullest potential. " ...
P.S. when I was an imm I dreaded the administrative side of things and mostly enjoyed RP and enhancing the mortal experience... and slaying... I like that too
I ask again - how? There are numerous potentials for abuse in an automated system. I don't see a way to prevent them, either. I welcome the idea, and if anyone can devise a method, that would be great. But I can say that without a way to prevent abuse while maintaining a dynamic reward system (so that points are rewarded for both length AND content) it is unlikely that the idea will come to fruition.
You can get an idea of how daunting it would be to design with nothing but notepad and a command prompt. Write a batch script that reads user input. Create a variable that increments based on character count of the input. Include a method of input validation that parses through the information, excludes extraneous info (like prompts/who lists/room information/where lists/etc.), but doesn't filter out the meat of the log. Make sure that it also filters out garbled text. Also make sure that it is secure, and doesn't allow for remote code execution or injection. Also give it a way to increment more based on context and content, not just length.
Spoiler alert: it won't work.
Granted, C is more flexible and robust than batch (I suggested batch because it is easier to learn, doesn't require anything to be picked up, and in this case also is similar enough to C to make the point). It still has limitations, though. I don't know of any way to accomplish what is being requested that won't also open the doors for exploitation.
Honestly, seeing this Anume/Thulgan bashing makes me truly disgusted.
None of the people bashing Thulgan has played a character which was even 1/10th as successful and long lasting as it and this has nothing to do with being an immortal. Even if you compare characters like Anamus and Garacci who was extremely successful, they would still be only halfway of what Anume's character was. But that's no surprise. Anume has had successful characters long before she became an Immortal. Anyone remember Messalantha?
Thulgan was the beast leader this mud has ever seen by far. And perhaps one of the very few, if not only, true Leader. I know great many people who've had every chance at successfully couping Thulgan, myself included on Tkanzhar, but just as myself, those others have also came to the conclusion that Thulgan simply does too good of Leader's job. Also I know of at least one instance where Thulgan was couped, by @egreir's DKN (Heiku) which was one of the most epic logs I've ever seen.
6 hours ago, Telufial said:
Thulgan ran around and stomped most of the pbase for like.... 5 years. Heavily rewarded, and made leader by her Imm char.
That is just not true. Firstly, Thulgan's PK success was not as big as most of you try to present it. He died plenty. Secondly, the time when Thulgan was running around it was Volg who ran Nexus, not Anume. Not just that but the times she had to wait for promotions were at least 2-3 times longer than what a usual player would.
As a closing sentence I would like the say that the only thing I am jelly of Anume is her dedication and persistence. I know that if I had those qualities, my characters would certainly excel hers and my achievement list would definitely be longer. But alas....
Shame on you guys, for bashing the best character and the best IMM this mud has every seen.
Over the years I've seen many immortals do some extremely disgusting stuff, yet, you decide to bash Anume, because her character, over the span of 5 years, achieved stuff.
Honestly, I now see why Virigoth decided to just shut the mud down.