On cabals...

I believe everyone will agree that cabals are a very big part of the picture in FL - thus being allowed to apply for one and getting promotions in one are an important thing itself. As it is at the moment, each cabal immortal has his own set of rules by which he decides when to do the two things mentioned above. Not just that, but some immortals generally promote faster than others. We have 7 PK oriented cabals who are constantly in war with each other. We have an immortal on top of every cabal, who decides when people are allowed to apply and get in, when members get promoted and so on.

That means we have 7 people, each taking care for HIS members. Inevitably, real life takes its toll from time to time, and sometimes some of the staff are gone for rather large intervals. The opposite is also true - especially with new immortals who are very active at the start of their "careers". This thing causes certain cabals to either get very fast or very slow promotions/inductances. There have been some big problems in the past, where there have been outcries from the PB when certain characters have gotten promotions FAST (Klemkin and Veraz for example). In reality those outcries are more because of the fact that certain characters get promoted fast, while others, slow. Very slow.

The root of this problem lies in the fact that there are no set rules and the fact that different people give out promotions to different cabals. This inevitably leads to:

1. When a cabal immortal goes away, his members stop getting promotions or are slowed down extremely.

2. When an immortal wants to make positive impression, he starts handing out fast (undeserved) promotions.

Which on its turn leads to:

1. No matter what you do, certain cabals will get promotions faster (slower) than others and there is no way you can influence this.

But f0xx, other immortals step in when someone goes away and we watch over his cabal. Right..............

That might seem like a minor problem to begin with, but I've noticed that that lack of promotions and immortal interactions is one of the major factors that makes players leave their characters and eventually the game, if the experience gets repeated. I've personally left many characters which I loved playing, for that very same reason, and I know I am not the only one.

So, to define the problem:

1. Very different speed of promotions/inductances for different cabals.

2. Lack of cabal immortal interaction

3. Failure to bring balance between (natural) enemy cabals:

---Failure to stimulate underdog cabals

---Failure to "slow down" stronger cabals (that's a combined issue from an inactive immortal in the underdog cabal and active immortal who promotes fast in the stronger and more numerous cabal)

To illustrate the problem in my third point, I would use a character who (imho) has been hugely overlooked, promotion wise - Secundus - this is a very active character who has given a lot from himself to fight his knight enemies, has been killed and full looted multiple times but never gave up and eventually, because of his strong will and persistence, managed to prevail over the LEADER of his enemy cabal, while that same leader plays his bane, is decked and has 3 cabal titles above him. A cabal immortal must have some very good reason to not promote such a member of his, especially when we are talking a promotion from V to T.

And that's just an example at the top of my head and I am sure each of us can bring many more such example where characters have been overlooked or "pushed" ahead... promotion wise.

While this may look like a flame towards someone, it is not, and I believe there is no individual to blame on overlooking this thing or that thing. It may look that having balance and equal rules while we have different people leading different cabals is a difficult thing, but it certainly is. The question is - does it have to be that way? All those problems can be solved quite easily, without any coding with a simple yet minor shift in the way things are managed.

Instead of having seven different people responsible for one cabal each, have 1-2-3 people responsible for all the cabals.

This will help the immortals who are responsible for leading cabal see the bigger picture and will prevent oversights and/or undeserved promotion. Even a small internal system can be created where the immortals in charge can suggest and vote on promotions on ALL the cabal members. That will bring much more balanced environment as a whole.

Not just that, but this will have an interesting side effect too, because it will "free" certain number of immortals which on their turn can take more active role in other responsibilities like player interaction and RP. Not to mention that the same management can be used on qthings to speed up the process of approval/denial.

I like it. I think if this was organized based on PLAYTIMES, it would be even more beneficial, because I for one have an odd playtime and my immortal interaction is almost nothing. Last RP I was involved in I was level 29, probably about a month(?) ago. So I do not think I am really noticed, unless I am being policed for possible bad actions.

I understand your topic, but unless you are, or have been speaking to, the player of Secundus, you can't really know everything that's been going on. My last Tribunal, Hatril, went from I to V, then back to I, and took a solid month to get to T. It was all within the bounds of the cabal IMM, and instead of getting frustrated at it, I just let it shape my RP as it should have.

Point being, whether we see someone deserving of a promotion, doesn't mean that the player is. And if you do indeed play Secundus, talk about it in the Prayer room.

And btw: Volg is keen on the pk aspect of his cabal, but I PROMISE you he is even more keen on the RP. I shot through the ranks of Nexus (fairly) quickly to E with Achskel with a mix of RP and PK.

I understand your topic, but unless you are, or have been speaking to, the player of Secundus, you can't really know everything that's been going on. My last Tribunal, Hatril, went from I to V, then back to I, and took a solid month to get to T. It was all within the bounds of the cabal IMM, and instead of getting frustrated at it, I just let it shape my RP as it should have.

Point being, whether we see someone deserving of a promotion, doesn't mean that the player is. And if you do indeed play Secundus, talk about it in the Prayer room.

And btw: Volg is keen on the pk aspect of his cabal, but I PROMISE you he is even more keen on the RP. I shot through the ranks of Nexus (fairly) quickly to E with Achskel with a mix of RP and PK.

Lets not turn this discussion into whether Secundus deserves a promotion or not. He is just an example, and yes, you are right, I don't know the details, so I might be missing something. That is not the point of this post though...

My biggest problem is my lack of interaction with alot of my cabal imms. As Azzar I interacted with volgathras maybe twice throughout the time I came back til I dropped him. Not having any direction except gather consumables, take lands, and be quiet got old

My only response then would to be put it in prayer. People have said it before, and I've actually done it. Post that you want some interaction, and see if you can match up a time. Worked for me in the past.

I know imms are on during my playtimes. I have been pulled up by a cloaked IMM to clarify a few things my cabal has been having trouble with.

I agree with Forsaken here. Remember, we have players and immortals all over the world, so time zones don't always line up. That doesn't make players or immortals any more or less deserving of promotions or their position. I can confirm that 100% of the IMM staff has the players' best interests at heart. I'm confident that each any everyone of us would be happy to arrange a time that works for both parties if it's an emergency. You may have to PM or prayer first to keep communication open for both parties.

I personally feel a bit guilty right now because I love my cabal, but my career and personal life is demanding an incredible amount of time right now. It's not fair to the deserving members of Hope or Knight. However, I communicate through notes, PM, and prayer to have each player accommodate as best as possible...even if it's a little slow sometimes.

Just remember, as a player, you might have to take the first step. That doesn't mean pestering for promo's or Q-races. It does mean opening up communication and trying to arrange mutual play times.

It might be good to have a single immortal control a cabal and its opposite. Same IMM controlling Nexus and Knight, for instance.

I suggested this before. That Imms should be responsible for more than one cabal. Yet it was shot down before to how other Imms step in when others are away. But if playtimes are a problem how is it the players fault? Is it really the players responsibility to take the first step? I had always believed that those in leadership positions are expected to take fulfill this role.

On another note with Secundus. I noticed him battling a Delgolchi and Lortikan (of which both were at T) then Lortikan got rewarded with an E after Secundus (whom was at V) eventually logged out. Hard to understand that one, unless the guy has absolutely no rp and loves ganging people lol.

It's not IMM responsibility to be omniscient. The only way we can do that is to be made aware of what's going on. We can't be here for every moment. It's logical that if someone wants something, they will do everything in their power to obtain that. It's not a secret that submitting logs and notes through prayer forum and in-game are incredible assets when one does not feel he/she is getting somewhere or is not getting enough of a response.

By the way, I like how some of you drag other people's character names here onto the forum and uses them as examples. Nicely done. I banned someone for that once before. I'll give you gentlemen some time to think about speaking for other people's characters when they may not want it. You want to use other characters as examples, take it to the Prayer Forum and stop spreading negativity on the forums. I'll let you clean up your own posts. This is a warning.

It's not IMM responsibility to be omniscient. The only way we can do that is to be made aware of what's going on. We can't be here for every moment. It's logical that if someone wants something' date=' they will do everything in their power to obtain that. It's not a secret that submitting logs and notes through prayer forum and in-game are incredible assets when one does not feel he/she is getting somewhere or is not getting enough of a response.[/quote']

In situations like this, I wasn't aware that submitting logs and notes on prayer was encouraged. That kinda feels like ooc or begging from a player standpoint which if must be done maybe they don't deserve certain things anyway? Quite a few players share the same mentality but if this strategy is the opposite of what I'm thinking than that's great! It should be made more well known.

I'm pretty sure that each of us are aware the Imms aren't omniscient which is why we suggest other Imms help to step in and alleviate some of that problem.

In situations like this, I wasn't aware that submitting logs and notes on prayer was encouraged. That kinda feels like ooc or begging from a player standpoint which if must be done maybe they don't deserve certain things anyway?

.

.

.

I'm pretty sure that each of us are aware the Imms aren't omniscient which is why we suggest other Imms help to step in and alleviate some of that problem.

My thoughts exactly. I am not trying to blame anyone here, I think I said it multiple times, so the ban threat came a bit unexpected, especially having in mind I said nothing bad about the character, quite the opposite actually....

...so the ban threat came a bit unexpected' date=' especially having in mind I said nothing bad about the character, quite the opposite actually....[/quote']

My thoughts too. If you dont' mind me asking, whom was your threat directed at Elrozin? If it was me I do apologize as I had no idea what I did wrong :confused:

I am a bit perplexed at the issue. Never really had any problems getting noticed, probably because I play at such odd times and never really log on the same time each day.

As for people bringing out a character they think should be promoted? I don't see harm in it to be honest. I don't really see how said player would be offended either (I'd be pretty pumped). But threatening someone with a ban when not a word of negativity was given is a bit far fetched.

Maybe update some divine mandates, since I isn't know that was against the rules either..

I am a little scared to jump into this thread, but I have to agree on some accounts.

As my last WM, I was stuck at V for EVER. I never once saw my cabal Imm, and killed a bunch of my enemies. Had lots of challenges (most which I won) and I eventually deleted the character because I didn't feel I was being rewarded for my actions.

I currently have a character that I am trying to get into a cabal, and I have sent multiple notes, done about 20+ clan quests, I have a VERY strong RP, and I still have not been allowed to even apply for my cabal. It gets a little frustrating when other players have all these extra skills/spells, and keep getting promoted, and I am not even allowed to apply to my cabal. I am not in any way trying to bad mouth the Imms, PLEASE don't think I am, I am just letting you know that I agree, and that some cabals rocket people to leader/elder, while others have people stuck at V for months.

I also want to give a shout out to a (i think new) imm Hepheus. I have had many fun RP interactions with him and also Anume. Love you two. And thank you both for the fun RP sessions, and the chance to play my dream character. Now hopefully I can just get into my cabal of choice!!!

I LOVE THIS GAME, and I want to be the best I can be, and stand a chance against these other enemies of mine, who have tons of cabal skills/spells, while I have nothing, and am working my butt off trying to prove myself, and be allowed to apply to a cabal. I hope it happens soon!

Again, I am not trying to bash the staff in any way. I know it is hard to see everyone, and that some of you have different play times. But maybe letting all the Imms have control over all the cabals would not be such a bad idea.

I really hope I don't get in trouble for this, because as I said, I mean no harm or trash talking, I am just stating the facts as I see them. And I LOVE FORSAKEN LANDS!!!!

-Charles

IKFL

The comment was both specific and non-specific. The specific part goes to Tassin. The sentence structure talks about two other named characters and Secundus. It contains enough ambiguity to easily pertain the ganging back to one of the other mentioned characters. It has potential to create issues, if you see? This is why I prefer character names not used as examples.

RE jibber: Divine Updates do not need to be updated. Common sense shows that these forums have been pushing towards a more positive tone for a great length of time. I'm not stifling anyone's speech here. I'm pointing out aspects for which there is thin treading. I encourage you all to please continue as you wish.

To avoid misunderstandings:

NOT good: note or prayer post saying I am getting overlooked, promote me now!!

good: in game notes, rp logs, pk logs, etc.

Re I'vekilledforless: You lack patience and that is what is stopping most of your chars. I've played uncaballed in my clan at 50 for three months before. It happens at times. Just keep to your rp, keep patient, do not demand an induction / promotion. Rp notes help as well as rp logs and pk logs. If you press the issue too hard it will be counterproductive.

Re Secundus: I've talked with another Imm about him being up for a promo the very night before he promoed himself via coup It sometimes takes a couple days however, esp if you have a cabal Imm who likes to do promos or inductions personally, with some rp involved.

he promoed himself via coup

Ha! I wasn't going to tell that. It was too funny to share!

Re I'vekilledforless: You lack patience and that is what is stopping most of your chars. I've played uncaballed in my clan at 50 for three months before. It happens at times. Just keep to your rp, keep patient, do not demand an induction / promotion. Rp notes help as well as rp logs and pk logs. If you press the issue too hard it will be counterproductive.

I understand what you are saying. It just gets a little frustrating when you see other cabal members being promoted in days, and I couldn't even get a promotion past V (as my warmaster) that went on for like 3-4 months. And at that point I did send notes and even posted in prayer forum. This was about 2 years ago though, so i'm totally over it.

With regard to my current character, I will not make another mention of my hopes to get into my cabal of choice. I will just keep doing my clan quests, and let my actions speak for themselves. I don't want to do anything to mess up my chances of getting into my cabal.

Thank you for the advice Anume, and again, you are AWESOME. Thanks for always RPing with me. Same goes for Hepheus.

-Charles

IKFL