Give cabals back to the players

Immortal rule over cabals should be RP based only.

The power to allow application, the power to promote and demote, and the power to select elders and leaders should have nothing to do with the cabal imm.

This can be automated to some extent:

A character is allowed to apply automatically after 25 clan quests, regardless of rank.

Applications are voted upon by membership.

Access to trusted status is set to cabal vote after 10 kills of cabal enemies or after 25 captures or 25 returns of the standard. Trust can also be attained through direct promotion by elder or leader.

Elder can be obtained after 50 in game hours at T and the nomination of someone else in the cabal. This would necessitate giving veterans and trusted players the ability to begin votes on promotion.

Leader can be obtained after 100 in game hours of elder, and then subject to cabal vote. In some cabals, leadership should pass between elders on a cyclical basis and then dependent on votes. This would move us from cabal monarchy towards cabal democracy.

Demotions are handled by players within the cabal.

This strips all immortals of direct cabal powers and puts them in the hand of players. Immortals should not be gatekeepers to factions and faction powers.

Since when do ideological factions bent on world domination operate under democratic principles?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily against players having more say in cabals... But RP-wise, I don't see any cabals being particularly democratic in nature. There are a lot of points where you say things should be some way, but no point where you explain why they should be that way - an appeal to democracy doesn't seem RP-justified.

NO, Pali.

I am right. Immortals should not be gatekeepers to cabals.

Now stop eating cheezewiz and support my idea.

I do not support the automatic T/E/L promos but I completely agree with more player power. If there is no leadertype character, the imm would run the cabal However if there is an outstanding T or anyone deemed worthy of E, the immortal should take a BIG step back. If not directly able to promote/ demote, notes to the immortal should be taken highly, even more than just a 'suggestion'.

Let's ditch the RP out the window for a moment.

I like Mali's idea. I loved it when cabals were mainly player controlled. What I didn't love about player controlled cabals was when the Savant Tower became the Healer Tower through OOC BS. We must definitely not forget what happened the last time players were handed cabal control.

I also agree we need more routes for players to gain ranks within cabals, we need to make it easier for players to get into cabals. Let the Trusted, Elders, and Leaders handle the smaller things. Delegation would be great. Who cares about inductees anyways? They always get the shaft.

Now, let's yank RP back into the window. Why would gods care about the individuals in the cabal unless the cabal was failing his/her will? A god has bigger fish to fry. Screw us mortals. We're amusement. Leaders could stop so and so from getting into a cabal just with ONE veto. Why? They're hand picked by the cabal IMM. Elders? Let's say it takes THREE of them to equal the weight of an L. Trusted can have a say. Anyone below Trusted, well, you're all grunts. Just shut up and do.

All this rambling is just me adding to the idea.

With our struggle to keep our pb numbers up I can see how in some ways our system should change. Imms keep a good job of ensuring further problems don't arise from changes. Some of your ideas seem good.

A character is allowed to apply automatically after 25 clan quests, regardless of rank.

This may work.

Access to trusted status is set to cabal vote after 10 kills of cabal enemies or after 25 captures or 25 returns of the standard. Trust can also be attained through direct promotion by elder or leader.

I like this idea. I don't see a reason why Cabal Imms shouldn't have the same power though. I don't like the idea of promoting guys that try hard and die alot over guys that do well. Sometimes I'm in a situation where I wait crazy times for T and feel I should let myself die or make myself look poorly but be tenacious just to get to T. I know doesn't make sense. Also this will put players back in the mindset that they want to be active go out there and giving it all because promotion is more directly in there hands.

Elder can be obtained after 50 in game hours at T and the nomination of someone else in the cabal. This would necessitate giving veterans and trusted players the ability to begin votes on promotion.

Another good idea. But Cabal Imms should be able to nominate as well. Also how do we stop ooc circles from putting guys in this position that don't deserve it yet? Allowing Cabal Imms to step in?

Leader can be obtained after 100 in game hours of elder, and then subject to cabal vote. In some cabals, leadership should pass between elders on a cyclical basis and then dependent on votes. This would move us from cabal monarchy towards cabal democracy.

Another Idea I can agree with. Since its the players who will live or die by the Leaders decisions it should also be there decision. Then again what about favortism or jealousy by players?

Demotions are handled by players within the cabal.

Yes but they could be initiate by anyone especially Cabal Imms.

All in all good ideas but I don't think some of them should be left up to players because frankly I don't think we're mature enough. Cabal Imms should almost always have the final say in these cases even if they were implemented.

Imms have always been doing great as far as inductions/promos. Though, I fully support the idea of being able to have a player run cabal. I would much rather an E/L be able to promote, demote, and 'allow' someone to get into the cabal.

Of course, if this E/L is a lame *** (prior to being E/L they were cool and IMM thought so too) the IMM should step in. IMM should also step up in choosing the L or E of any given cabal at any given time if they decide that the current L or E suck and/or just like to grief players.

I dunno. As long as this doesnt include the idea that someone can demote and E or L. I've had people in my cabals who hated me when I was E and L but unfortunately when it comes to running a cabal you cant always do the best for one, you have to look at best for all.

Popularity contest = fail.

Also keep in mind that the majority (=almost all) of our cabals are full or nearly full atm. I do not think there is a problem with people getting caballed. If the cabal is full, it's full. It's up to the player to cabal leave a full cabal if they are done playing the character to make room for someone else.

I really dont think people need more control. Too much room for easily corrupted cabals and cabal votes through OOC means.

Imm run cabals already have uite a bit of freedom if you can get the cabal to agree on the actions. Imms running cabals allows them to moniter players, and promote them based on their worth to an unbias source.

and promote them based on their worth to an unbias source.

Imms are not unbiased.

their choices are much more likely to be affected by your IC actions, than your OOC connections is more the point.

Imms are not unbiased.

I human can NOT be unbiased.

Even if their only bias is due to different activity than yours i.e. less interactions.

That being said, my personal experience is that the current immortals are doing their job fine.

Imms being unbias has been proven by a certain someone getting demon recently.

I human can NOT be unbiased.

Even if their only bias is due to different activity than yours i.e. less interactions.

That being said, my personal experience is that the current immortals are doing their job fine.

I agree. But to a lesser extent I agree that we should catter to more different wills.

So why not open a single cabal to this Idea.

This lets us see how waters go on OOC circles, and keep some players happy. If it turns into a OOC circle feast players have the other cabals to fall back to.

Now which cabal should this be?

Warmaster or Savant?

On a side note. This does not even needs to be a full cabal.

It could be just a faction. For example:

Barbarian is free for all player run, with 5 max T menbers, but Gladiator is IMM suppervised.

Personally I do not want to participate in a cabal run solely by players. PLayers have this awesome ability to hold long lasting grudges that bleed across multiple chars. The last thing I want to be involved in is votes getting tainted because char A beat the brakes of char b, so he made a new char and now the new char, char C, is hindering char A for no reason other than OOC crap.

Forget that, we have proven time, and time again we need babysitters. I mean think about it. There are just some players you do NOT want to be in any position of power.

Personally I do not want to participate in a cabal run solely by players. PLayers have this awesome ability to hold long lasting grudges that bleed across multiple chars. The last thing I want to be involved in is votes getting tainted because char A beat the brakes of char b, so he made a new char and now the new char, char C, is hindering char A for no reason other than OOC crap.

Forget that, we have proven time, and time again we need babysitters. I mean think about it. There are just some players you do NOT want to be in any position of power.

Signed.

And lol.

Imms being unbias has been proven by a certain someone getting demon recently.

That certain person got Demon in first place only because IMMs are biased i.e. statistically, knowing his history, a machine would have never given him that chance (the IMMs simply wanted to give him yet another chance to prove that he's changed )

I'd say the two most important aspects of my idea which will satisfy both parties are:

1. Automatic chance to apply after 25 clan quests, regardless of rank.

2. Access to trusted without imm involvement.

1. Automatic chance to apply after 25 clan quests' date=' regardless of rank.[/quote']

Lol, that will make people wait even longer than now. And its extremely non-newbie friendly.

1. Access to trusted without imm involvement.

That's very vague. Would it be automated, if yes what are the requirements - time, kills, standard returns/captures? Voting, if yes - how exactly?

I don't say I don't agree with your idea, but I am not a fan of player run cabals. Then on the other hand I've had characters that have waited for 100+ hours to be allowed to apply for cabals that are virtually dead. That should never happen and characters should be allowed to apply automatically after 50 hours if the cabal has less than 3 active members. Then there was Dagoneto who had to wait 400 hours for E, while in the meantime Kendriks got inducted, promoted up to E and then deleted, yet I was still T

And to be constructive I will add my suggestion:

INDUCTION:

If a cabal has 0 active* members, cabal induction should be completely automated, time and quest based - 10 quests and 50 hours**

If a cabal has =< 3 active members then application process should be automated, time and quest based - 10 quests and 50 hours. If a character isn't accepted, then he will be given another chance every 10 hours after the last vote ends.

If a cabal has more than 3 active members, induction should happen via suggestions from the people inside the cabal with a simple command - suggest (character). The suggest command triggers a special vote***

PROMOTIONS:

Up to V - automatic as now. L/E should be immortal based, as now.

T should be one of those:

a) If there is no L/E/T, after 150 hours an automated promotion occurs.

If there is T but no L/E, after 150 hours an automated special vote is sent. If the vote fails, such votes are sent every 25 hours after the end of the last vote.

c) If there is E, he can start special vote himself, but CAN NOT vote in it. The only requirement for the vote is that the target character must be V.

d) If there is L, he can start normal vote himself.

Of course, immortals will be able to promote/demote themselves as it is now, to avoid abuses.

• Active definition - seen in the last three days

** Hours are scoresheet based.

*** Special vote - vote that lasts 3 days and has special conditions to be successful:

If the leader votes YES in this time, his "yes" should override anyone else's votes.

If no leader votes and elder votes YES, then his yes should override everyone else's votes.

If multiple elders vote, they all need to vote YES for the vote to be successful.

If no leader/elders vote and Trusted votes, his YES should override everyone else's votes.

If multiple Trusteds vote, they all need to vote yes.

If no L/E/T's vote, then everyone who is V and bellow should vote yes for the vote to be successful.