Minotaur Charge

So... unless a skill is either a) solely responsible for your death or incapable of being overcome... there isn't any room for there to still be some problem with it?

I am saving a link to this thread for the next time you call something overpowered, Dale.

Seems to be the measure by which we are held pali. I mean they have siad we are being personal, rude, insulting, and are weaklings that need to harden up...

I just wonder whats left for legit arguments against...

and yes, to clarify, the issue IS in fleeing and returning. takes less than one round to leave and get back, so if the victim uses any abilities the minotaur can then flee and return with a charge.

The second issue is you cant flee, because you cannot flee and run away (due to lag) quicker than they can come after you with a charge. So you flee, get charged, flee get charged, flee get charged with no directional commands going in quicker than the minotaur can come after you and charge.

Some classes can avoid it by masking their flee direction, thus forcing the minotaur to scan before chasing. It can also be defended against by having what i would consider higher than average AC, around -500 they begin to miss charges...around -700 it becomes a pitfall for them to rely on it. These work arounds, however, are not accesible to most class/race combos and are nearly impossible for your average player to obtain.

Alright. I will try to explain my position on this in a manner that is as far from "personal issues" as possible.

I have a hard time with threads like this one, because I believe that no matter what the original poster states, these threads originate from an encounter with a character who uses a skill which has either stomped that person multiple times OR has ended a long survival streak for that person.

The reason I have a problem with this is because there is no basis for a change in this sense. One of the big things that you need to have on your side to propose something like this, in my opinion, is some overwhelming evidence that something like this is overpowered. And to me, that doesn't just mean overpowered in theory - I can sit here all I want and theorize about how an Elf Blademaster using a crusader-modified two-handed Mindflayer in Kairishi would be ridiculously overpowered. But that's a lot of speculation, and I could never actually make it work in game. The last minotaur that stomped a lot of people's heads in was Lamah. Do you know how long ago that was? I do - it was in September of 2008 - more than two years ago!

People post stuff like this because, frankly, they've gotten their butts kicked a time or two. People posted the same stuff about blademasters, and about vampires, and about ogre rangers. Why? Because they didn't know how to fight against it, because it happens so infrequently. So was/is my advice to "Harden up, Princess?" Yes! Not because I feel like being a prick, or because I want Slinore to get to the top. It's because if you keep acting like every time someone kills you they had to use a bug, or a trigger, or a special cheat code, then you're being an arrogant *** and you will soon stop contributing positive things to this game. Whoever said that new players fighting against the minotaur charge tactic would get frustrated and leave is wrong. New players that want to stay will stay - and unlike old players, who are set in their ways (can't teach an old dog new tricks), will develop a way to beat these characters who constantly stomp them. Going to say I'm wrong? Well, it's a time honored tradition that new players find creative new ways to kick old players around. Look at people like Klemkin and Suunmar. Both characters were within the first two or three played by their owners. And both kicked some serious butt.

So in summary, you know what the people whining about minotaur charge have contributed to this thread? Here's a list:

1. Idle speculation about whether or not Slinore's character uses triggers, demonstrating a lack of faith in player integrity and probably making his character less desirable to play.

2. Passing out a metric sh**-ton of misinformation which, when new players find this forum and are trying to learn, will confuse the hell out of them.

3. Spewing vitriol toward one another in the vain hopes of making your argument seem more potent by trying to damage other peoples' "street cred".

This thread is NOT a winner, and many of the veterans who have posted here (including myself) have reached a point where they believe forum etiquette doesn't apply to them. So grow up, wise up, and harden up. Because it's people like us that make people like Liadon and Klemkin not want to stick around - which means that someday this MUD will just be five or six of us beating the tar out of each other day in and day out. And that's NOT what I want.

I think that Ototh was also a minotaur who stomped the hell out of a lot of people, and did it while not even caballed. He was around when I was playing Gorbak, which was a long time after Lamah.

Not nit-picking, but it'd be a shame if he was left off the "Kick *** Minotaurs" list.

I expected better from you Evangelion. I am sadly disappointed. Instead of trying to help you are just poring gasoline in the fire.

As we do not foresee any change being made to Mino Charge Mechanics, perhaps it would be better to discuss how we can avoid it.

1 I don't think that Victim AC has any impact and charge chance to land.

2 You can effectively prevent charge if you blind the minotaur.

3 Slow also disables charge.

4 Fighting inside a room with a closed door when you have pass door can aid you to not eat a charge if you have to flee.

5 Charge missing is quite rare, do not count on it for PK.

6 Autosneak races can aid in not eating charges when you flee.

7 Most of times when I did with a mage to mino charge, i come to the conclusions that it was due to not using my Missile Protection scrolls. Eating unblock-able caps damage because you are cheep is stupid.

8 If you are not a Autosneak race then recall, do not flee.

9 If you just ate a charge, know that Minotaur tend to wait for you to use a spell/skill, so that they can flee and charge again while you are lagged.

Pointless banter.

It seems you missed a lot of the many good points that were made in this thread. Yes, there were some personal insults from both sides flung around. Also some trigger speculation.

Though there were also some very good points about the charge, why it is wrong, and ways to fix it that wouldn't hurt the race.

I would also like to put in my 2c when it comes to triggers. Who cares? If there is an abusable mechanic players can/will/should take advantage of it. It is not the players fault, it is the poor game design that allowed it in the first place and up to the admin to fix it.

Also, some historical perspective.:

http://forum.theforsakenlands.org/showthread.php?t=17822&highlight=charge

http://forum.theforsakenlands.org/showthread.php?t=15990&highlight=charge

Its awesome how selective your reading is Bali.

I have had a problem with charge long before slinore. I don't have a problem with it because slinore beat me with it. I don't even fight slinore most of the time. I have had a problem with charge for years, and so has everyone else. It merely resurfaced now with Slinore.

Unlike you Bali, not everyone here complains only when something beats them. Also using examples like Klemkin, and Suunmar is laughable, since both came from muds that use the same type of Code as FL, and both where playing power combos. . If you where great on CF, or AR, it wont take long for you to do good here.

Take a step back off the Soap box and think when the last time YOU fought minotaurs was, and we can see if your opinion is the same now.

Spewing vitriol toward one another in the vain hopes of making your argument seem more potent by trying to damage other peoples' "street cred".

This does tend to be extremely prevalent and counter-productive. See almost all of the preceding posts on this page as an example.

Perhaps you all should focus more on what you are responding to than who you are responding to.

I'll just throw this out there too:

With all the changes over the past few years, warriors are not only more buff than they used to be, they also have access to a huge amount of easy to get consumables that can get them significant boosts to hit/dam, AC and healing capabilities, not to mention easy access to long-duration flight which they previously did not have.

When you add up these seemingly minor tweaks over the years...a warrior that can repeatedly charge-lag a mage narrows the margin of error so little that in most cases, I just refuse to fight a mino warrior as a mage.

When you add up these seemingly minor tweaks over the years...a warrior that can repeatedly charge-lag a mage narrows the margin of error so little that in most cases' date=' I just refuse to fight a mino warrior as a mage.[/quote']

This is the central problem that people seem to be having with mino charge right here. Let's walk through the tactical options a c/c has after being charged by a mino warrior:

1. Flee. Much of the time, this flee will lag you long enough for the mino to follow and charge you again, so this is generally a very bad idea - but it is also intuitive and will often be done automatically, especially if the person is not 100% ready for combat.

2. Enter a combat command - but if this command does not succeed at either lagging or blinding the minotaur (and this command is likely going to be capable of being saved against), he can flee and return to charge again before your 1-round casting lag wears off. Keep in mind that for most c/cs, even getting the first attack has this problem, as he can flee and return to charge you anyways.

3. Do nothing, so that you aren't lagged when he flees to pull another charge - while this can keep you mobile enough to prevent him from charging you again, as most c/cs, doing nothing isn't going to help you win the fight in any way either.

4. Recall, which is your best bet for survival, but again... useless if you intend to actually fight someone.

C/cs have protective shield for a reason - to prevent melees from being capable of repeatedly lagging them. Monks were designed to get around this to a degree, but they have significant weaknesses that have been exchanged for enhanced lagging abilities - mino warriors don't. It isn't the lag or the damage done from a mino charge that anyone is objecting to - it is the ability to do this repeatedly and reliably in a way that is extremely difficult to counter. I think things are different for mino zerks, and I think they should keep this enhanced charge even with its repeatability - because a zerk who is doing nothing but charging is nowhere near the melee machine that a warrior who is doing nothing but charging is.

1. Idle speculation about whether or not Slinore's character uses triggers, demonstrating a lack of faith in player integrity and probably making his character less desirable to play.

2. Passing out a metric sh**-ton of misinformation which, when new players find this forum and are trying to learn, will confuse the hell out of them.

3. Spewing vitriol toward one another in the vain hopes of making your argument seem more potent by trying to damage other peoples' "street cred".

And yet, despite the fact that I have done none of the above, despite that I haven't fought a mino warrior in years (let alone died to one), the only counters to my posts arguing for a change have been that I was wrong about how long paladin charges lag for. No one's attempted to argue that my analysis of the different dynamics of mino warriors and zerks fails to show that mino warriors benefit from the repeat-charging far more than zerks do, or that mino warrior charge exists in a sufficiently different situation that it shouldn't be given a timer for the exact same reasons that paladin charging was given a timer (at least a paladin attempting it took way, WAY longer due to lessened melee capabilities and left more time for slip-ups).

If you think that people whining on the forum helps chase away newer players... how do you think that getting repeatedly stomped by a tactic that seems ridiculously easy for your opponent to pull off feels to a newb? I've never wanted to quit playing this game because of what anyone's said on the forums... I have quit many times because of frustrations with things that I considered to unbalance gameplay.

Nice points Pali, I have only one objection:

"4) Recall, which is your best bet for survival, but again... useless if you intend to actually fight someone."

Recall is useless in certain cases too, and surprisingly the character in questions falls in those cases ;P

So basicly, what are you left with, if you are a c/c?

Fighting with a pet might help too, even a really weak one. Usually a pet stays in combat for at least a microsecond after you flee and that might buy you enough time to not get charged again.

I think the flee lag is more of an issue than the charge skill itself. I remember having extreme frustration as an outlaw when Corinkorth was a Tribunal. Anytime I was in trouble and needed to flee he could easily just follow and apprehend before I could move. Blinding the blood guard or using wimpy seemed the only answers. Sometimes blinding is not an option because of the lag you suffer, and wimpy stops working once lag is brought to the equation (aka charge, or shield throw for instance).

I think flee lag should be changed and wimpy removed from game, but I know I am in the minority here.

Hello Everyone!!!

So let me start this by saying I have never fought Slinore and cannot speak for his personal mino charge. I do however have a 50 mino zerk, and would like to point out that if the charge is OP, then thats the ONLY good thing about minos. I truly believe that my zerk is "broken" and does not do the right amount of damage, or hits per round. While I cannot speak towards a mino warriors charge, I can tell you that as a zerk, I have had nothing but a very hard time winning a single battle.

IKFL

IKFL we are addressing Mino Warriors charge. Few have problems with Mino Zerk Charge, as they have inferior passive melee (they need to use skills).

And Pali, that is one of the best resumes of the issues with C/C on Mino charge.

But the real question is are you still going to hire it.

(dont think too hard)

Gosh I love you Mya. You know just the right things to say.

Gosh I love you Mya. You know just the right things to say.

Hands off, her boobs are mine.

Now a bit more serious -

"and would like to point out that if the charge is OP, then thats the ONLY good thing about minos."

Actually, I do not agree.

Minos:

• Are GIANT sized

• Lack mental vuln (the only other giant sized race that lacks mental vuln is a demon)

• Are the only race that can wield two two-handed weapons at the same time.

• Have axe proficiency above average.

Now couple that with an ability that is able to lag ANY class out there (even classes with protective shield and balance active!), charge is HARDLY the only nice thing minos get.

As for the "berserkers need the charge" argument, I've said it before. That statement comes only from the fact that berserkers overall seem weaker compared to warriors. On the other hand I wont mind any race that can be a zerker to gain an extra perk if they go bers - just like it is with minos at the moment.

Back on track. No disrespect to Slinore, but Lamah was way nastier due to equipment. As Iraekiira there was literally nothing I could do before I was charge killed. Made me delete out of frustration. Damn you Tassin.

Back on track. No disrespect to Slinore' date=' but Lamah was way nastier due to equipment. As Iraekiira there was literally nothing I could do before I was charge killed. Made me delete out of frustration. Damn you Tassin.[/quote']

This is, oddly, as an invoker, which is the c/c that has the best counter to the flee/charge tactic. EDIT: Although, it really is only useful defensively...

EDIT 2: I also continue to note that no one has yet argued directly against any of my positions regarding mino warrior charge...

I agreed with you, Pali, and your vulcan like logic, for the record, Pali.