Is "mocking or conveying contempt" towards the playerbase really the best way to approach this?
Warmaster inductee period
Sometimes you can’t win. There’s a new post every week about how to make something easier. I don’t have a problem with that by itself but if it’s not met with open arms by everyone let alone management, then we start criticizing them. I mean we’ve lost imm presence in discord for bitching. I’d hope we can draw that line. WM Inductee is a fairly stupid location to have this issue as well. I don’t think I will post in this thread again but damn, can we pick actually important issues to fix? I’ve never met a newbie that quit from getting into a cabal, maybe we should improve our outreach to newer players and expand on levels 1-10/15 to keep them around.
Honestly guys, it's called humor.
Continue discussing as you'd like; many people here have a lot of points against the Inductee period.
I don't ignore you guys - I never have.
@Celerity you know better.
I mean I laughed at the joke. I'm just curious if there is any deep seated lore behind it, like the original wms devised this test for only the most dedicated to make it. Nothing in help wm details it nor does any help file you get access to when you join wm
5 hours ago, 'tarako said:
I'm just curious if there is any deep seated lore behind it, like the original wms devised this test for only the most dedicated to make it.
As Celerity alluded to, I'm pretty sure it's largely a relic from the original Warmaster ethos that was 100% anti-magic. During the beta and 1.0 periods, WM wannabes were expected to never use magic - back then, if you wanted to be a WM, you didn't use sanc vials, protection potions, gyvels, city gates, city healers, or any other "magic" items (excepting eq with the magical tag), and you were expected to disavow consumables and other magic like this from the moment your character was rolled onward. Entering the level 30 PK range and having 2-3 qrace wannabes looking for PKs there every time you logged on? Good luck - you do it without sanc, protection, detect invis, etc., all for the hope that when you later apply to Warmaster you'll be accepted. The reasoning here was that 1.0 Warmasters were dedicated to the eradication of magic use altogether, based on the belief that use of magic was inherently corruptive and would be deleterious on both an individual and societal level in the long term, and so anyone who was willing to taint themselves by using magic wasn't worthy. WM wannabes didn't group with mages to level up, and ANY mage was fair game for a WM or a WM wannabe to kill on sight, because of the belief that magic use was inherently *wrong. *Divine spellcasters got something of a pass, as lore-wise it isn't the communer creating the effect but rather the communer's god interceding on their behalf, but WMs still tended to look down on them for requiring divine aid rather than rising to the challenge as individuals.
Compared to a restriction on magic item use from the moment a character was rolled onward, the 2.0 inductee period is much less of a trial, and lore-wise I view it as a sort of trial-by-fire for new members to prove their dedication. I don't know that it flows from the modern WM ethos as well as the 1.0 restrictions did from the 1.0 WM ethos, as all 1.0 WMs were expected to be fanatically anti-magic while modern WMs dropped that angle and are largely focused around a loose concept of self-perfection, but it's worth keeping in mind that becoming a WM used to suck a lot more than it does now. ;)
I am on the fence with this issue.
On the one hand it's kinda cool and unique and since you don't lose any real lives it is not really punishing per se.
On the other hand it forces at least 10 hours of not being able to really play the game on you. These days a lot of people are usually fully trained and even reasonably decked by the time they hit 50. Then you suddenly have this period of time where you are at the mercy of everyone else. Now of course you can approach the I period of time as a time to just have fun and let loose, but if you are a serious character with serious equipment it is probably not worth playing recklessly, especially if Savant is in a good place, all the work you have done to get ready for PK at 50 can be undone in a moment, then you have to wait for M before you can even bother re-equipping.
There are plenty of people who will take advantage of you as an Inductee, and it is pretty anti fun I think.
I know some people have done well as I, and of course if you are a thief it's a lot easier since you can be stealthy and do other things to level the playing field. Other classes do not have the same luxury.
When this started there typically were 30+ players online. Which given that most had alts meant a dozen WM hopefuls. Most of whom would give up. Remember that back then saves were harder to come by, and many players were ignorant of simple strategies used today.
Those of us from the old days can remember squires as well. We no longer see the squires. I may be wrong but the squires may be able to hide their affiliation. WM and Savant can not. I think this is the reason for the death not counting on inductees. That said, perhaps Savant needs a similar protection for their inductees. I mean seriously the have all the time in the world to learn what the War Masters did to accomplish it.
Just thinking out loud.
I am tired of seeing "other cabals/races/classes don't have this, so this shouldn't either".
You want unique stuff and mechanics, but then you are annoyed when they are unique.
@Erelei's sarcasm was spot on.
2 hours ago, f0xx said:
I am tired of seeing "other cabals/races/classes don't have this, so this shouldn't either".
You want unique stuff and mechanics, but then you are annoyed when they are unique.
@Erelei's sarcasm was spot on.
People want unique, not negative. I’ve seen more WM Inductees quit that character than I have any other. We should be focused on promoting a positive experience and if the majority of the PBase expresses that WM inductee period is not that, then it should be considered.
How long did WM have a Leader and 2 Elders, during that time how many savants rage quit at Inductee?
Now it is the reverse. Savant is full, has 3 or more Trusteds, melee EQ is down and WM is nearly empty.
Of course a WM Inductee is going to get scorched by the current Savant lineup.
Now is this balance? I dunno... Just seems like one extreme to another.
That’s not due to Savant inductee not having access to basic PK necessities though.
True, but it certainly feels futile at times, being an Inductee vs Trusteds and Up.
Granted Savant I has more tools than WM I, but it can feel just as futile for them I am sure.
I'm with Tarako on this one - I'd like to understand what the purpose is.
"Because it's always been that way" Isn't a good enough reason anymore IMO. Design choices like this should have a purpose, and should provide a positive experience for players. Muds have a dreadful reputation for feature for feature's sake - because a coder / imm / whatever thought it would be a 'cool idea'. Anything that isn't adding something to gameplay, or player experience needs to be rethought IMO.
1 hour ago, Manual Labour said:
True, but it certainly feels futile at times, being an Inductee vs Trusteds and Up.
Granted Savant I has more tools than WM I, but it can feel just as futile for them I am sure.
That's ANY cabal though. Knight Inductee vs Nexus E/L. Trib v Watcher. Any of it.
None of them are put at a further disadvantage like WM Inductee is.
2 hours ago, Manual Labour said:
True, but it certainly feels futile at times, being an Inductee vs Trusteds and Up.
Granted Savant I has more tools than WM I, but it can feel just as futile for them I am sure.
No other cabal comes close to crippling their inductees. Actually no other cabal TAKES anything away from inductees. WM takes the I vs T matchup and makes it worse for their members.
We could just as easily change this into something really cool for the more "extreme" players here that want this challenge.
When inducted into Warmaster you get a cabal selection choice(similar to subcabal choice) that asks:
" Do you wish to test your inner fire by participating in the Trial by Fire? "
You then have 10 hours of the no-magic Inductee phase, gain say 3-5RP at the end of the 10 hours, and a quest added to your list: " Completed the Trial by Fire. "
Now, you have the choice. What's funny about this idea(if implemented) is everyone will PROBABLY do the trial by fire because we are all perfectionist, power gaming, RP fiends that want that little token saying we did it, lol.
We could just leave it alone. No cabal (that I have been a part of) gets anything at Inductee and if you give WM something you should spread the wealth and give something to all of them. It sucks for sure to not be able to use sanc but it's only 10 hours. Hell, I usually wait to delete till I get rolled with stance......
4 hours ago, Trick said:
People want unique, not negative ..... We should be focused on promoting a positive experience ....
Hugging and holding hands is positive.
1 hour ago, FatMike said:
We could just leave it alone. No cabal (that I have been a part of) gets anything at Inductee and if you give WM something you should spread the wealth and give something to all of them. It sucks for sure to not be able to use sanc but it's only 10 hours. Hell, I usually wait to delete till I get rolled with stance......
In this case, to be honest, it is more "making WM like the other cabals" not giving them something more. In truth their Inductees get the shortest stick of the bunch.
1 hour ago, Kyzarius said:
In this case, to be honest, it is more "making WM like the other cabals" not giving them something more. In truth their Inductees get the shortest stick of the bunch.
I totally get it, been there many times. What would you give them to make them like others? Sub-cabal at I? Sanc/stance at I? I mean it sucks, really sucks but it ain't that bad. Like I said, it's worse when you have the same outcome at M as at I. Which again, have been there many times also. So if you give them sanc/stance at I and people still get rolled, then what? Trusted skills at I?