Cleave

Well, what other chance of fighting do they have? Outdamaging you perhaps?

Charge instead of cleave would be a bit of an overkill I think, perhaps raise a bit the success rate and lower the damage of cleave, but a skill that lags for 2 rounds against a dual malform wielding DK + warlock is A LOT of pain.

Do not underestimate the melee capabilities of a cleric.

Secondly I've seen other muds where dk's are similar to ours but with slight differences. One being charge which didn't seem to bring forth any unbalancing issues over there.

Thirdly you make it sound as if dual malforms are easily obtained. What about those dk's that spend a huge about of their time without them? That is if they can even obtain them. All the while getting picked about by patient communers using a simple strat.

I see a skill that isn't that tactically practical(and for good reason) and could be easily replaced by a skill that would cover one of their vulnerabilities which I believe is a silly one.

DK's have the maledictive arsenal to combat this type of communer attrition. You should be tapping into that a bit more. Then you can worry about lagging them as you are chasing them.

Hmm with dk's casting at a lower lvl than shamans and facing communers whom should have at least -40 to -50 saves that can also heal most mals Its difficult for me to see this slow strat taking affect before your buffs expire.

Some mals can't be cured, as you well know...especially one key one that makes it hard to run around--and lucky for you, malforms will probably even help you out

I do think DKs have some problems...but I don't think that lag is one of them.

DKs are probably the second best laggers in the game (besides a necro--maybe an enlarged giant-size warrior/zerk (if the dk isn't big)?)

What do DKs with their malforms actually fear? A very decked warrior/ranger? A strong blm? A shaman maybe?

I daresay malforms are unbalanced. gasp

but, they work because DKs are much too weak without them. A DK is either much too strong or much too weak...any class based on in-game eq and mobs will always be out of balance (warriors and necros anyone?)

here is a thread with a lot of suggestions for dks--maybe it should be revived:

http://www.theforsakenlands.org/forum/showthread.php?t=440&page=4&highlight=aggressive

Start with raar's post...he is right on track (even a year and a half later--shows how much they changed ) - melinda's idea about malform is quite good too I think (less strong but easier to get - dk's need a boost and good pker's don't)

I prefer Cleave to charge.

Here is why:

• Weapon damage factors in vulnerabilities. Charge does not.

So, grab a Fire Polearm and start cleaving Ferals

I remember a Undead complain that Drayson Cleave killed him in 1 hit.

The special sleep effect is not supposed to happen always, it is a rare Bonus of about 1/10 chance.Mya.tm.

Regular rules apply with Heavy two handed axes, with enlarged High STR characters.

Any questions regarding intention direct them to Viri, as it was him who changed it in the first place.

ALSO:

Good Cleric are the premium class to fight Dark Knights.

With:

-Isolate

-Lag immunity

-Silence

-Blind

-Shrink

-Slow

A pity no one plays them anymore.

I remember a Undead complain that Drayson Cleave killed him in 1 hit.

yeah...that was me...but everyone at that time had avg 35(or whatever) wrath weapons of Saruk slaying

I still like the idea of an undead necro tribunal...just picked the real wrong time for it!

avg 38, actually.

Some mals can't be cured, as you well know...especially one key one that makes it hard to run around--and lucky for you, malforms will probably even help you out

I do think DKs have some problems...but I don't think that lag is one of them.

DKs are probably the second best laggers in the game (besides a necro--maybe an enlarged giant-size warrior/zerk (if the dk isn't big)?)

What do DKs with their malforms actually fear? A very decked warrior/ranger? A strong blm? A shaman maybe?

I daresay malforms are unbalanced. gasp

but, they work because DKs are much too weak without them. A DK is either much too strong or much too weak...any class based on in-game eq and mobs will always be out of balance (warriors and necros anyone?)

here is a thread with a lot of suggestions for dks--maybe it should be revived:

http://www.theforsakenlands.org/forum/showthread.php?t=440&page=4&highlight=aggressive

Start with raar's post...he is right on track (even a year and a half later--shows how much they changed ) - melinda's idea about malform is quite good too I think (less strong but easier to get - dk's need a boost and good pker's don't)

You have a point in regards to that single spell helping the dk out in this instance. But I've not had any good experiences using mal's on communers with even basic protection from mals.

But as far as DKs being the second best laggers? I disagree with that entirely. It's been in my experience that the bash for nearly each non-qrace choice for the dk is ineffective. Therefore they must rely on there charmie for lag which isn't as reliable as you probaby think. Necros can have 3 charmies that bash therefore making that probability go up 3x. Warriors/Berserkers can bash and charge any time they want and don't have to rely on probability. And there are also monks whom are obviously the best laggers out there.

Though maybe you're right and the charge lag isn't the problem here. But for a class that is meant to fight within a certain window should have the tools to make sure it happens (i.e. vampires/thieves/ninjas) , especially considering the difficulty of gaining malforms. Maybe they simply need a boost to their spell lvl's? I can see this solving alot of there problems.

But as far as DKs being the second best laggers? I disagree with that entirely. It's been in my experience that the bash for nearly each non-qrace choice for the dk is ineffective. Therefore they must rely on there charmie for lag which isn't as reliable as you probaby think.

I disagree with this entirely. From my experience, a DKs bash is the exact same as a warriors bash. Which, yes, misses more than it should. However it also lands a good amount of the time. Dislike the size disadvantage of "average" sized races? Eat a venom sack. Warlock bashing unreliable? No way. I've had a Warlock hold me completely lagged for 10 rounds. Unable to do a SINGLE thing for 10 rounds. Sometimes it takes a round or three to begin bashing, but when it does... It is relentless.

Add to that the DK can cast spells when the warlock bashes, then bash himself when the warlock lag wears off. Yes, there is a chance the DK will miss his bash.. However after playing a Stone Warrior (who often enlarged himself) I will say my DK lagged far better and more reliable than the warrior.

I do agree that a DKs mals should be cast at a higher level. Plague/poison are almost pointless in trying to use at 50. Though when I said mals, those are not what I meant. And me and Celerity were referring to more than just that single mal your thinking about.

EDIT: My DK also outlagged any monk. Monks are not the best laggers. They're only good at lagging the unlaggable... Because they're the only ones that can.

I disagree with this entirely. From my experience, a DKs bash is the exact same as a warriors bash. Which, yes, misses more than it should. However it also lands a good amount of the time. Dislike the size disadvantage of "average" sized races? Eat a venom sack. Warlock bashing unreliable? No way. I've had a Warlock hold me completely lagged for 10 rounds. Unable to do a SINGLE thing for 10 rounds. Sometimes it takes a round or three to begin bashing, but when it does... It is relentless.

Add to that the DK can cast spells when the warlock bashes, then bash himself when the warlock lag wears off. Yes, there is a chance the DK will miss his bash.. However after playing a Stone Warrior (who often enlarged himself) I will say my DK lagged far better and more reliable than the warrior.

I do agree that a DKs mals should be cast at a higher level. Plague/poison are almost pointless in trying to use at 50. Though when I said mals, those are not what I meant. And me and Celerity were referring to more than just that single mal your thinking about.

EDIT: My DK also outlagged any monk. Monks are not the best laggers. They're only good at lagging the unlaggable... Because they're the only ones that can.

When I was talking about the unreliable dk bash I was talking about giant vs non-giant bash. And if you're telling me that even with an enlarge sack you can land more than couple bashes in a row against a giant warrior, mounted paladin, high ac thief/ninja/druid/blm than I'd think you must've played one lucky dk because I've had tons of them and I have learned only religiously use bash anymore if at all. True the Warlock has been known to bash for an incredibly long time but usually its to myself when I fail a charm or in very rare instances. I can probably remember twice per character where its lagged for over 5 rounds.

I find it very interesting you believe your enlarged stone warrior to be able to bash more effectively and reliably than an enlarged dk with warlock. I'm pretty sure my opponents would agree that Lamah, Zebb, Zehava were much better at it than Darrien, Waojin, Drayson.

Yes I was referring to veil of darkness but it seems like you're saying silence/plague/poison/energy drain will help to pin down an overly evasive communer? Or did I misread what you and Celerity were trying to say?

Monks not the best laggers? Sorry if I offend but It seems like you haven't been playing here if you believe that. They can lag the laggable just as well as the unlaggable. I've 60 rounds of lag to prove they can lag better than any other class in the game. And many more have complained about the monks lagging capabilities to the point of where they won't even play their chars because they aren't able to enter a single command.

"Yes I was referring to veil of darkness but it seems like you're saying silence/plague/poison/energy drain will help to pin down an overly evasive communer?"

I dissagree, from the point of view of a Good cleric, they will mostly have very high Mal saves. Enuff so that you will only land something with a "Natural 20".

Paladins, same stuff... as it appears Most Combos rolls with the ability to do some sort of Blasphemy.

Healers are better dressed than Adeptus.

Shamans, with no need for Hit/Dam will also get high saves.

So that leaves Evil clerics and Giant Clerics G/E. As they normally have hybrid equipment, so they might be easyer to spell up.

But anyway what is a DK trying to Silence,Poison,Plague a Communer ? They probably spend less mana curing it than you to cast it.

I wouldnt Dirt, Rescue be better ?

Yes. I think my enlarged stone warrior with a 108% in bash SHOULD land more bashes and more effective ones when they land than my enlarged human DK + Warlock.

Yet that was/is not the case. Though funny you say lucky, my DK did have the lucky perk.

Lamah, Minotaur, Zehava, Ogre, Zebb, Ogre?

I have fought Lamah with both my Warrior and DK. I would disagree that Lamah lagged me better than a DK + Warlock combo. Strongly disagree.

Yes. Veil of Darkness + energy drain, maybe curse. You could throw a plague in the mix but I wouldn't think it worth the extra effort. I never used poison/plague at 50, its too weak and doesn't last long enough. However the first two I mentioned should be more than enough to send any caster/communer running for the hills... And have a damn hard time finding those hills.

Monks are not the best laggers. Their lag is random and pretty unpredictable. Though their strength lies in that they can lag the normally unlaggable. I have played many monks and fought many monks.

In the name of pure lag, I would take a DK + Warlock or a Necro with full Travens over a monk ANY day.

Even with 3 Travens, I had a hard time pinning someone down. It doesn't help that they go back to human(illithid) size when you log back in. That said, I'd take a Necro too.

Travens are by a fair margin not the best lagging mob for a necro.

Try hasting yourself and having your weapon blessed by a cleric or healer first. Something Virigoth would always rant about.

Cleric only, its a Rank 32 spell.

And Clerics are quite rare this days.

Yes. I think my enlarged stone warrior with a 108% in bash SHOULD land more bashes and more effective ones when they land than my enlarged human DK + Warlock.

Yet that was/is not the case. Though funny you say lucky, my DK did have the lucky perk.

Lamah, Minotaur, Zehava, Ogre, Zebb, Ogre?

I have fought Lamah with both my Warrior and DK. I would disagree that Lamah lagged me better than a DK + Warlock combo. Strongly disagree.

Yes. Veil of Darkness + energy drain, maybe curse. You could throw a plague in the mix but I wouldn't think it worth the extra effort. I never used poison/plague at 50, its too weak and doesn't last long enough. However the first two I mentioned should be more than enough to send any caster/communer running for the hills... And have a damn hard time finding those hills.

Monks are not the best laggers. Their lag is random and pretty unpredictable. Though their strength lies in that they can lag the normally unlaggable. I have played many monks and fought many monks.

In the name of pure lag, I would take a DK + Warlock or a Necro with full Travens over a monk ANY day.

Lol lucky perk and Zebb was a Fire btw. But If i'm not mistaken Lamah nearly lagged locked Kongol each encounter and actually killed him the first time when his eq was far superior to mine by combining enlarged bashes and charge. And against Tnaris, Lamah lagged locked him completely during the battles that we had (though I remember your warlock stopped me for only a moment with its bash only during one encounter), its hard to see a dk+warlock in my place doing better than that

Nethertheless my purpose was to point out the dk's inability to lag classes with protective shield while being a class that is dependant on its success by finishing their opponents within a certain time frame. Shouldn't this give them even more of a reason to have access to charge moreso than other chargeable classess?

Regarding mal choice I do agree with veil if you can land it but why gamble so many rounds based on percentages in a case where yours aren't very high when dirt is the more dependable choice? In most cases all you're doing is giving them more of an opportunity to outmelee you or throw more things at you.

Your right. Lamah DID lag Kongol. Kongol was fighting your guardian and you landed a bash as his sanctuary faded. Except that was Lamah + Dragon. That was not purely Lamah and if you remember, I managed to flee. By the way, you actually never landed a charge on Kongol that he did not counter.

After that you never lag locked Kongol for more than 3 rounds. Ever. In fact, I think Kongol lagged you more than you did him. Though our Warrior fights were mostly... Who bashed who first. Lol.

Tnaris was not usually completely lag locked. Though you did lag him a lot. If that was the case, you would have killed him much more than you actually did. If I remember correctly, our battles were fairly close much of the time. I remember clearly putting mals on you like "veil of darkness." Something that cannot be done if lag locked.

DKs inability to lag classes with protective shield... DKs have more offense than most Warriors. Access to mals. Now you want to lag caster/communers? You must be kidding. If unholy strength is such a problem for you, don't use it.

I never used unholy strength for any battle I thought would be long or drawn out. DKs can fight a drawn out battle. They just need to take proper precautions.

Veil of darkness. In a typical fight, it landed on about the 4th cast. And no, it does not replace dirt either.

"Yes I was referring to veil of darkness but it seems like you're saying silence/plague/poison/energy drain will help to pin down an overly evasive communer?"

I dissagree, from the point of view of a Good cleric, they will mostly have very high Mal saves. Enuff so that you will only land something with a "Natural 20".

Paladins, same stuff... as it appears Most Combos rolls with the ability to do some sort of Blasphemy.

Healers are better dressed than Adeptus.

Shamans, with no need for Hit/Dam will also get high saves.

So that leaves Evil clerics and Giant Clerics G/E. As they normally have hybrid equipment, so they might be easyer to spell up.

But anyway what is a DK trying to Silence,Poison,Plague a Communer ? They probably spend less mana curing it than you to cast it.

I wouldnt Dirt, Rescue be better ?

She's got some points here that made me ponder for a while. Maybe upping the cost of the cure spells? Furthermore, upping the cost of healer cure's (hp, and mal cures) would force them to have be wiser with Mana in a fight... and might allow them to get more aggressive in pk.

If a paladin can drop a cure blindness and run back into combat with no worries, because a blindness spell will cost more than the cure... the blind slinging class can't win attrition style. Probably because they aren't a martial class and the paladin is, as well. Look at clerics, as well... they're defensive as a mofo. They can take a beating and still pump out cures to HP and Maledictives, at little cost. Maybe, either, up the lag on the spells or mana cost or both?

Healers... they're my biggest gripe in the game. They can't actively PK... because they're a freaking monster if they do. You just can't kill them... so how about making them slightly more offensive, and a lot less defensive? Not to the point of clerics, but, you get the idea.

Make their cure spells a little better than others? So, cure crit may do 25 hp with a paladin, but 35 with a healer... and the healer's cure crit will cost 25% more mana. "OH no! Healers this would ruin healers and mana!" No... it will make them be wiser with what they cast. They can't cast combat spells anywyas... they get what? Curse? Dispel? That's about as crazy as they get. So, make them worry about spamming too many cure crits when they should out damage someone with a dispel... and take away a defense. Don't they have parry and shield block? Drop parry or shield block. They can't parry for crap anyways with their maces/flails... so take it away.

This way, they can die easier, and on one can bitch about them being active Tribunals busting Criminals. If they're supposed to be nonaggressive to the living... then why the hell can they walk around with a guard allow it to beat the ever loving crap outta some guy.... "I didn't raise a hand, I'm not responsible." didn't work for a lot of war criminals, but it seems to work for the good healer that wants to kill people. "I just told others to do it... I'm free and clear." At that rate, why not let a good order a hit on another good through bounties?

Hrm, turned into a bit of a rant. Sorry.

a-g

Your right. Lamah DID lag Kongol. Kongol was fighting your guardian and you landed a bash as his sanctuary faded. Except that was Lamah + Dragon. That was not purely Lamah and if you remember' date=' I managed to flee. By the way, you actually never landed a charge on Kongol that he did not counter.[/quote']

Yeah my dragon did land a bash while I kicked dirt. Though if the dragon didn't bash I would have. And no your sanctuary didn't fade I'm pretty sure I would've seen it. Though once you fled and I got a charge in right before the tick ran off which you rightfully so countered but had I got to you a mili-second sooner you wouldn't have been able to counter that one. I then kicked dirt in your eyes before you fled then I got you with charge that did not get countered because you were in addition disorientated from the dirt in your eyes. My point being reinterated is that it was the combination of bashes and charges that got you.

After that you never lag locked Kongol for more than 3 rounds. Ever. In fact' date=' I think Kongol lagged you more than you did him. Though our Warrior fights were mostly... Who bashed who first. Lol.[/quote']

Are you serious? I never lagged you more than 3 rounds? You must not have played Kongol then lol. And yes i'm sure you lagged me just as long if not longer.

Tnaris was not usually completely lag locked. Though you did lag him a lot. If that was the case' date=' you would have killed him much more than you actually did. If I remember correctly, our battles were fairly close much of the time. I remember clearly putting mals on you like "veil of darkness." Something that cannot be done if lag locked.[/quote']

Hmm I think you have a bit of a bad memory. But one thing I'll say is that magic strike is the main reason you got mals on me. The other is that I usually go mostly full hit/dam no saves against melees.

DKs inability to lag classes with protective shield... DKs have more offense than most Warriors. Access to mals. Now you want to lag caster/communers? You must be kidding. If unholy strength is such a problem for you' date=' don't use it.[/quote']

Again I disagree my warriors have just as much or more offense than any of my dk's. You can compare my hit/dam with lamah's and drayson's retirement posts and see that. I've played 3 decently successful examples of each to show, all probably still in this forum. With regards to mals again, from past experience I've learned not to use them and they only started becoming useful again after I heard about the change to magic missile. And are you kidding? Don't use unholy strength? Don't think I'll even reply to that. Actually I think I'll give you a funny example of how I see what you just said. Person A complains my battlemages have a hard time because I can't keep up key spells during the length of a super battle. Mudder replies if its so much of a problem for you don't use any spells at all -wink-wink- Person A replies wow I never thought of that, thanks Mudder you're my hero.

Seems my original argument got derailed quite a bit. -sigh-