Minotaur Charge

Here we go again, I think alot more people are fired up about this one now. Lets look at a sample from the pk logs.

You can't yell.

Slinore's charge attack MASSACRES you! Slinore has some big nasty wounds and scratches.

n

fle

Ouch's fury LACERATES you!

Slinore's cleave maims you!

You sure are BLEEDING!

Slinore's cleave MUTILATES you!

You sure are BLEEDING!

Slinore's bladed onslaught maims you!

You sure are BLEEDING!

You parry Slinore's attack.

You are burned by the corrosive acid on A Sharp Sword.

Slinore's acidic bite scratches you.

You sure are BLEEDING!

Slinore dodges your attack.

The pimp cane sputters and goes out.

Slinore has some big nasty wounds and scratches.

Slinore's cleave MUTILATES you!

You sure are BLEEDING!

You parry Slinore's attack.

Slinore's cleave maims you!

You sure are BLEEDING!

Slinore blocks your attack and attempts to strike at the brief opening.

Slinore's riposte wounds you.

You sure are BLEEDING!

Slinore blocks your attack and attempts to strike at the brief opening.

Slinore's riposte wounds you.

You sure are BLEEDING!

The pimp cane sputters and goes out.

Slinore has some big nasty wounds and scratches.

...340hp damage from the charge + 2 rounds. Cuz I was drained I guess?

No way! You are still fighting!

Slinore has some big nasty wounds and scratches.

No way! You are still fighting!

Slinore has some big nasty wounds and scratches.

No way! You are still fighting!

Slinore has some big nasty wounds and scratches.

You flee from combat!

You lost 10 exp.

In a thinning forest

[Exits: north east south west]

n

n

Slinore flies in.

You can't yell.

Slinore's charge attack DISMEMBERS you! You sure are BLEEDING!

Slinore has some big nasty wounds and scratches.

we have a sample of a character fleeing, and immediatly putting in DIR commands yet they get charged before they can move. Charge LOCK. complete and simple. In this log we see an opening charge, the victim trying to flee IMMEDIATLY, so the flee will go through once the charge lag drops. Once he can move his flee command goes through, but the minotaur can move quicker than the victim hitting a second charge effectivly locking the victim down.

Now I know there is "speculation" that a chase trigger is in use here, however I am not going to suggest an idea or call for a witch hunt based on speculation. What I want is a balancing fix to what I feel is an obvious combat bug.

Minotaur charge should apply the SAME charge timer as crusaders, paladins, blademasters...etc etc. The benefit of course, the bonus for minotaurs, would be the axe bonus (the throwing in the air and slashing) as well as the ability to charge with ANY weapon wielded in the main hand. This in and of itself is a huge benefit, even if you removed the ability to lag by charging over and over and over despite protective shield, and balance skills being in effect and/or mastered.

If you think its to unfair to minotaurs (a giant race without the mental vuln..) then I would suggest adding some additional effect to the charge. Gore for example, would be a reasonable idea. Have a succesful charge also have a chance to gore your opponent causing bleeding for a few tics.

This lag-lock insanity though, has got to go...Every few months we get a minotaur that charge-locks half the pbase as their only real tactic, Randar being the last I recall before the current.

I can agree with your argument Kyz, but I would also like to bring up one about clerics.

CC's, especially certain builds, are ***way too offensive ***for the amount of survivability they get.

I would go so far as to say it's on the same plane as ogre ranger in terms of disrespect they should be showed.

There are certain things in the game that just need to be changed. Mystic and Combat DI's being a small example.

I proprose Celerity's build idea back in her example post on Zerker's from way back. If you want an offensive cleric you should lose a ***LOT ***of defense/survivability.

I vote for a complete Pwipe.

Start over, and see if anything is different.

I'm glad someone sees it my way. I was told that the lag is not enough for the mino to return and charge again, but I also have logs showing myself inputting absolutely one command after the flee, and it not getting in. My only chance was if the mino flees first, (In attempt to return and charge) and I had not spammed anything, including flee, and hit a directional command.

You can't yell.
Slinore's charge attack MASSACRES you!
Slinore has some small wounds and bruises. 
Slinore dual parries your attack.
The night-black orb glows as tendrils of magic swirl about.
Your shocking grasp hits Slinore.
The Hunter Eternal's fury misses you.
You block Slinore's attack with your shield.
You block Slinore's attack with your shield.
Slinore's shock MUTILATES you!
You are shocked by the lightning from a tainted clockblade.
Slinore's shocking bite hits you.
You writhe in agony from the plague.
Your sickness scratches you.
The white aura around Slinore fades.
Slinore writhes in agony as plague sores erupt from his skin.
Your sickness scratches Slinore.
A halfling villager writhes in agony as plague sores erupt from his skin.
Your sickness scratches a halfling villager.
Slinore has some small wounds and bruises. 
Slinore dual parries your attack.
Slinore blocks your attack and attempts to strike at the brief opening.
Slinore's riposte wounds you.
You parry Slinore's attack.
You block Slinore's attack with your shield.
You parry Slinore's attack.
Slinore has some small wounds and bruises. 
252/816hp 854/1086mana 493mv 192007tnl 10hour fle
You couldn't escape!
Slinore lights some dark black leaves and smokes it.
Slinore is surrounded by a white aura.
Slinore has some small wounds and bruises. 
fle
Slinore parries your attack.
Slinore dual parries your attack.
The Hunter Eternal's fury maims you!
You parry Slinore's attack.
You block Slinore's attack with your shield.
You parry Slinore's attack.
The Arctron tears into your nerves.
You are shocked by the lightning from a tainted clockblade.
Slinore's shocking bite grazes you.
Slinore has some small wounds and bruises. 
You flee from combat!
You lost 10 exp.
A Bustling Marketplace
 Strongly colored stands compete for the attraction of every costumer, and
it looks as though each merchant is trying to outdo every other merchant
here. The smell of cheaply baked sweets wafts through the area like some
sort of lure. Young children can been found playing here and trying to
catch glimpses of all the strange foreigners. It is a terribly loud and
busy area, but invigorating nonetheless. A trader's paradise. The sound of
money clinking emanates from the structure to the south. 
[Exits: north east south west]
 A swarm of flies circle around a pile of Slinore's dung.
(Charmed) (White Aura) A member of the Blood Guard protects his master.
A slith is here, dealing arms and armor.
xxx/xxxhp xxx/xxxmana 492mv 192007tnl 10hour e
Slinore rides in.
You can't yell.
Slinore's charge attack MASSACRES you!
You sure are BLEEDING!
Slinore has some small wounds and bruises.

As I recall, fleeing does lag you slightly, and is intended to do so to give your opponent a chance to chase you - however, I agree entirely that there is a problem here in respect to minotaur warriors. Even paladins, with considerably less melee output during the period charge lags for, were changed so that they couldn't repeatedly charge.

Well, while I agree with the first log, Twinblades your log shows another possible reason for the lag.

Well' date=' while I agree with the first log, Twinblades your log shows another possible reason for the lag.[/quote']

the shock didnt generate the you are stunned message. Nor did the arctron generate the you are paralyzed message.

Though, to the point HAD he been paralyzed, isnt this just making minotaurs into a class that can lag lock ANYONE if they just get a hold of one weapon?

This just shouldnt be the case, player skill (knowing when to run, speed of command entry) and/or preperation should be the factor, not w;charge 1. wait for flee.....e;charge 1., wait for flee....s;charge 1.

Even paladins, with considerably less melee output during the period charge lags for, were changed so that they couldn't repeatedly charge

yeah I know! This is what blows my mind about this. I mean Minotaurs DO get special bonuses for charge as is, charging with a staff and pugil mastery is insanity already. In the logs against casters who must use their spells to do damage, and must flee to jockey their opponents around, you just see them dominated by 200 - 300 hp losses that they cant escape from, then they flee...and get hit again, and again, and again, despite having done a perfect job of not spamming commands. Then if they do try to cast ANY spells, the minotaur can wait for it..flee and come back with a charge before the ONE ROUND LAG is exhausted. BLAM another 2 - 300 hp gone.

I agree. Mino charge should have more lag for the mino than it has for the victim who flees.

Also, the obvious use of that chase trigger is cheap. Very cheap.

Obviously Mino charge needs to get looked in. But it wont, just like the mind-flayer was not for a very long time.

Clerics are not to offensive. There is a general lack of how to fight Clerics. Partly from the stubbornness of not using saves, expecting a Hit/Dam suit to work vs every class. Partly from not understanding how the religious cleric skills work, or what they do.

Please Mya sweety, don't turn this thread into another crusade of desinformation.

Yea, I don't think there's anyway to claim that there is not a trigger involved here. As Kyz said, it's not player skill, it's the game that ends up doing the winning here.

As f0xx alluded to, what if charging lagged the mino three rounds instead of two? That way he could try to be as chargelocky as he wanted, but it would always give the defender a chance to flee and be able to open - Thus redirecting the fight to be more affected by player skill and speed as opposed to a trigger victory.

There are alot of good posts here. Except the part of Mya's post that references clerics and is completely irrelevant. <3umya

Player skill? HA!

Do away with aliases along with those triggers and we'll talk.

This game will NEVER be even. Someone's always going to have an advantage, whether it's typing speed, reaction time, better knowledge, etc....

I know nothin' about minotaur charge, its lag, or anything like that.

But if I were playing that minotaur, I wouldn't be feeling so great listening to people bash my tactics because they think it's "unfair" and "OP".

Stop and think. There are ways to go about this without throwing someone under a bus.

Player skill? HA!

Do away with aliases along with those triggers and we'll talk.

This game will NEVER be even. Someone's always going to have an advantage, whether it's typing speed, reaction time, better knowledge, etc....

I know nothin' about minotaur charge, its lag, or anything like that.

But if I were playing that minotaur, I wouldn't be feeling so great listening to people bash my tactics because they think it's "unfair" and "OP".

Stop and think. There are ways to go about this without throwing someone under a bus.

nobody is throwing anything under the bus, are you not capable of discussing something without trying to take other opinions as an attack? Even in this case your trying to claim we are attacking someone. Which is not the case, it is the opinion of several players that the minotaur charge is broken, once they get you in combat you cannot get away unless your lucky...though I have found that haveing ove -500 ac makes them miss...there Valek, EVERYONE must have -500 ac if they wish to fight charg-locking minotaurs.

and I will do you a favor and define skill again..you ready?

1. the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well: Carpentry was one of his many skills.

2. competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity: The dancers performed with skill.

3. a craft, trade, or job requiring manual dexterity or special training in which a person has competence and experience: the skill of cabinetmaking.

Reaction time, knowledge, preperation ALL this IS player skill. You literally debunk your own dissmisive retort regarding skill of the player being involved in your VERY next line.

In the case of minotaur charge, skill, as defined by the above definitions, is not the factor that decides the fight. It is simple the minotaur standing there, out melee'ing their opponent (since they are a warrior) and then typing a direction and charge OR relying on a(n) (Assumed, as in I have said I am not trying to start a botting witch hunt here) trigger that reads the flee text and follows and charges.

Do away with aliases along with those triggers and we'll talk.

This game will NEVER be even. Someone's always going to have an advantage, whether it's typing speed, reaction time, better knowledge, etc....

This are advantages related to player skill, and anyone can improve them.

Every command has a lag associated, this allow players who have less reaction time and slower connections to breathing room.

It's when the game mechanic forces you to depend on pure Reaction time, as when trying to block a charge with kill spam, that makes the game less interesting.

We should install "Minotaur mondays" where you have to create a minotaur, and only minotaurs are allowed for 24 hours. Then, we'll see how awful it really is.

Maybe feral fridays too...

It's only because of ONE character that these discussions EVER come up. Last time it was Llama. It's only when someone becomes successful or incredibly difficult.

And you're not discussing. You're beating a dead horse. In public. If you think it's not affecting the person (trigger or not) then I'm here to tell you you're wrong and while you may not be directly attacking anyone, a little compassion wouldn't hurt you.

It's possible to be just as fast manually as you are using triggers, since there is a built-in delay to all commands. Just saying.

unless your spamming, you can usually chase someone who flees out of combat and re initiate. Sometimes I like to purposefully not enter a command, then they flee and I chase with a lag skill. Good fun.

Another log.

284/1455 291/435 483/507 17544etl>5718gold (M)ounted 15> You slam into Slinore, knocking him senseless!

Your bodyslam MUTILATES Slinore!

Slinore has some big nasty wounds and scratches.

Azzar: [===|---|---|---]

284/1455 291/435 483/507 17544etl>5718gold (M)ounted 15>

The Hunter Eternal's fury mauls you.

You sure are BLEEDING!

Slinore's shock LACERATES you!

You sure are BLEEDING!

You parry Slinore's attack.

You roar in fury and ignore Slinore's feeble blow.

You are shocked by the lightning from a tainted clockblade.

Slinore's shocking bite hits you.

You sure are BLEEDING!

Slinore blocks your attack and attempts to strike at the brief opening.

Slinore's riposte decimates you!

You sure are BLEEDING!

Slinore parries your attack.

The Mournblade draws life from Slinore.

Your life drain scratches Slinore.

Slinore has some big nasty wounds and scratches.

Azzar: [==-|---|---|---]

180/1455 291/435 483/507 17544etl>5718gold (M)ounted 15>

You parry Slinore's attack.

Slinore's shock MUTILATES you!

You sure are BLEEDING!

You parry Slinore's attack.

You roar in fury and ignore Slinore's feeble blow.

Slinore's shock MUTILATES you!

You sure are BLEEDING!

The Arctron tears into your nerves.

You hear a terrible crackling as the Arctron's blade begins to grow!

Slinore's lightning bolt DISMEMBERS a dark serpent!

Slinore's lightning bolt injures you.

You sure are BLEEDING!

Slinore blocks your attack and attempts to strike at the brief opening.

Slinore's riposte mauls you.

You sure are BLEEDING!

Your magic maims Slinore!

Your cleave MUTILATES Slinore!

Your magic MUTILATES Slinore!

The Mournblade draws life from Slinore.

Your life drain scratches Slinore.

Slinore looks pretty hurt.

Azzar: [=--|---|---|---]

64/1455 291/435 483/507 17544etl>5718gold (M)ounted 15>

hay slinore <~~~~ He got 3 commands off before I got one out

Slinore has fled!

Slinore flies west.

64/1455 291/435 483/507 17544etl>5718gold (M)ounted 15>

Slinore flies in.

You yell 'Help! Slinore just charged into me!'

Slinore's charge attack LACERATES you!

You sure are BLEEDING!

Slinore looks pretty hurt.

Keep in mind I had been paralyzed earlier in the fight, but it wore off while I was chasing.

This doesn't show anything. You bodyslammed right before the round and he fled right after the round. As I've reminded everyone many times, lag is not as simple such that as soon as combat rounds roll by twice you can immediately move again.

so my bodyslam lagged me long enough for him to get in 3 commands AFTER he took my slam lag? He was not enlarged. You get more than 2 rounds of lag off bodyslam, there are a few logs supporting that in the logs section. Desaram vs Azzar being a good example.