Lawful Evil

It was thinking the other day and noticed that Lawful evil must be the least played aliment ever.

Especially if you are not going for Justice/Tribunal.

Although Lawful Evil has the RP potential to be a extremely fun.

So I suggest we give uncabaled Lawful characters some advantage to cover the fact that they are gimped in cities cause they cannot engage anyone except outlaws.

I was first thinking of a cool weapon for Lawful only, when I had a great Idea. What if Town Guards assisted Lawful Characters?

Lawful characters are well known and respectable citizens.

So it is natural that the guards would aid them due to their reputation.

This would balance the fact that Lawful characters cannot engage in town. Which is the main reason few people play Non-Tribunal Lawful characters. Especially evil.

With this I leave you some thing to read on Lawful Evil RP.

http://www.ehow.com/how_4516633_role-play-lawful-evil-character.html

In my opinion, you cannot be truly lawful evil in FL.

Edit: Let me expand, imms can correct me if I'm directly wrong. I feel lawful evil characters should really be able to manipulate the law to their own benefits. While this is definitely possible by FL's standards, it is quite limited. For instance, lawful evils are REQUIRED to purposefully and to the full extent of their ability seek crime and criminals in FL. In my understanding, Lawful Evil characters are prone to bribery, smuggling, and breaking of the law when it suits them, as long as they are not caught or publicized. In FL, this would get a lawful evil outcasted. The key note is that Lawful Evil characters use the law to their advantage and are not 100% bound to it in every way. In FL, they are bound to it in every way. I feel like in FL, lawful evils must act more along the lines of lawful neutrals when law is concerned, and just get their evil acts out of the way, outside of the lawbound areas (cities).

The problem is that a character who is prone to bribery, smuggling, and breaking the law when it suits them is that this means that they are not lawful.

Your ethos is not how you are seen by the world, it is WHO YOU ARE. Lawful evil is tricky because so many people think of evil in fairly simplistic terms - if you're not killing people for fun you're not evil, if you're not breaking the rules whenever you can get away with it you're not evil, etc. But evils can be very principled, intelligent beings that rarely commit acts that are viewed as overtly evil while still, in the end, acting purely in service of their own interests and without regard for the well-being of others.

For instance, an evil can be willing to freely help out others - because he knows that they will assist him in return later on. He's not doing it out of the goodness of his heart, he's doing it as an exchange of favors that he'll call in on later when it benefits him more. Likewise, an evil can fully support the laws of society existing as unbroken rules because he recognizes how those rules benefit him - he's willing to exchange him not breaking the rules for the extra security and power he can gain from those rules remaining intact.

I mean, seriously... when's the last time you saw a politician killing someone? They're still evil.

In my opinion, you cannot be truly lawful evil in FL.

Edit: Let me expand, imms can correct me if I'm directly wrong. I feel lawful evil characters should really be able to manipulate the law to their own benefits. While this is definitely possible by FL's standards, it is quite limited. For instance, lawful evils are REQUIRED to purposefully and to the full extent of their ability seek crime and criminals in FL. In my understanding, Lawful Evil characters are prone to bribery, smuggling, and breaking of the law when it suits them, as long as they are not caught or publicized. In FL, this would get a lawful evil outcasted. The key note is that Lawful Evil characters use the law to their advantage and are not 100% bound to it in every way. In FL, they are bound to it in every way. I feel like in FL, lawful evils must act more along the lines of lawful neutrals when law is concerned, and just get their evil acts out of the way, outside of the lawbound areas (cities).

That is exactly how I feel too.

The problem is that a character who is prone to bribery, smuggling, and breaking the law when it suits them is that this means that they are not lawful.

Your ethos is not how you are seen by the world, it is WHO YOU ARE. Lawful evil is tricky because so many people think of evil in fairly simplistic terms - if you're not killing people for fun you're not evil, if you're not breaking the rules whenever you can get away with it you're not evil, etc. But evils can be very principled, intelligent beings that rarely commit acts that are viewed as overtly evil while still, in the end, acting purely in service of their own interests and without regard for the well-being of others.

For instance, an evil can be willing to freely help out others - because he knows that they will assist him in return later on. He's not doing it out of the goodness of his heart, he's doing it as an exchange of favors that he'll call in on later when it benefits him more. Likewise, an evil can fully support the laws of society existing as unbroken rules because he recognizes how those rules benefit him - he's willing to exchange him not breaking the rules for the extra security and power he can gain from those rules remaining intact.

I mean, seriously... when's the last time you saw a politician killing someone? They're still evil.

I understand and agree with you that this is how FL perceives Lawful Evil. That's how I RP it in FL too. I have a divergence in opinion on what I think Lawful Evil is, however. I see them believe the law is a tool that they use to be evil with. If you're lawful evil, you believe in the law and what it can do for you. To believe in the law, for the law's sake is to do it for the citizens, which is a very selfless attribute. Not very evil. To believe in law so that you can manipulate it and get what you want? Evil. Why would a person who otherwise follows the law NOT kill a guy who's blackmailing him, just to stop the threats? In FL, lawful evils can't be bribed. They can't refuse to follow a criminal. They must complete those duties. They are supposed to do so because they believe, again, that the law is a valuable resource that needs to be preserved for the good of all... Especially with the slightly limited means of changing law, as many Lawful Evils in a position of power would no doubt try to do, this makes it VERY difficult to correctly RP a lawful evil.

Indeed, some things end up in conflict in FL.

Lawful evil is one of the things which is very hard to play. Another I believe is Evil Gladiator. But in the end that is the beauty of RP and it helps to get into very unexpected situations and different situations.

Has anyone seen V for Vendetta? I always thought the bad guys in that movie were good examples of lawful evils. They are certainly evil, but all their actions are legal. It is the law that gives these otherwise unimpressive people their power, and they use it (while staying within its boundaries) to achieve their goals.

If they break the law they are destroying the very system, without which, they would just be regular schmoes.

But I agree that it is very hard to play a proper lawful evil in FL.

I see them believe the law is a tool that they use to be evil with. If you're lawful evil' date=' you believe in the law and what it can do for you.[/quote']

You're looking at evil as a motivation - I'm looking at it as a character trait. One doesn't have to view the law as a tool to accomplish evil ends to be an evil person who lives within the law.

To believe in the law, for the law's sake is to do it for the citizens, which is a very selfless attribute.

Except that you are one of those citizens, so the strength of the law is strength protecting you. No selflessness about it.

Why would a person who otherwise follows the law NOT kill a guy who's blackmailing him, just to stop the threats?

To be realistic... this doesn't really happen in FL, in my experience. However, even if it did, perhaps she takes the view that going outside the law weakens the law, and the greater advantage that the law provides her is more beneficial than going outside it to take care of this one individual annoyance. Perhaps she even intends to turn the law to her advantage, to outlaw blackmail, and then use the law to punish this person in the future.

In FL, lawful evils can't be bribed. They can't refuse to follow a criminal. They must complete those duties. They are supposed to do so because they believe, again, that the law is a valuable resource that needs to be preserved for the good of all... Especially with the slightly limited means of changing law, as many Lawful Evils in a position of power would no doubt try to do, this makes it VERY difficult to correctly RP a lawful evil.

Yes. Lawful people don't take bribes that violate the law (bribes that don't violate the law would be just fine, as I'm not aware of bribery being illegal in any city)... because for a person to be lawful, they must not be the type of person that breaks the law. Again, your ethos is not how the world sees you, IT IS WHO YOU ARE - if your ethos is lawful and you are not being lawful, you are breaking RP.

Also, yes, Tribunal Adjudicators must chase criminals... you seem to be confusing lawful evil with Tribunal evil a bit here - they are distinct, though related, concepts. A lawful evil that is NOT a Tribunal is actually not required in any way to chase criminals - they aren't even required to report them, as NOT reporting them isn't against any law posted that I'm aware of.

I'm not disagreeing that lawful evil doesn't require a bit more finesse to pull off than chaotic evil... but chaotic evil is an align/ethos combination any five year old could pull off. "It's a little harder to RP correctly" isn't really an argument against the setup in my opinion - I just view it as you needing to broaden your RP.

Also, yes, Tribunal Adjudicators must chase criminals... you seem to be confusing lawful evil with Tribunal evil a bit here - they are distinct, though related, concepts. A lawful evil that is NOT a Tribunal is actually not required in any way to chase criminals - they aren't even required to report them, as NOT reporting them isn't against any law posted that I'm aware of.

I'm not disagreeing that lawful evil doesn't require a bit more finesse to pull off than chaotic evil... but chaotic evil is an align/ethos combination any five year old could pull off. "It's a little harder to RP correctly" isn't really an argument against the setup in my opinion - I just view it as you needing to broaden your RP.

Let's not give them ideas for more laws Pali. (My chaotic self cringes everytime Oppressant looks my way as is. Even on Lawfuls...paranoia sucks.)

Also, I agree with everything you have said. Evil is who you are as is any Alignment. Ethos is how you choose to go about it, you choose to follow laws, therefore that is what you do.

Now a bard bribing/begging or whatever it's called on the hapless citizens as long as there is no law against it? Go ahead. You're within the bounds and you're just filling your pockets, no harm no foul.

Got that nifty skill coerce? Well hey, you're following the law and helping yourself to enforce the laws, so they should give it to you. No matter you're just keeping it out of the hands of those dirty lawbreakers not smart enough to use the system like you do.

You ARE evil. You CHOOSE to obey the laws. Both are you.

You ARE evil. You CHOOSE to obey the laws. Both are you.

Exactly. If you're the type of evil who is willing to break the laws when it suits you, then you are neutral evil. If you're the type of evil who doesn't care about the laws at all, and breaks them without thinking about them, then you're chaotic evil. But if you're the type of evil who is willing to work within the system, and who values the overall protections and powers afforded by the system and wants to preserve them (or simply don't want to deal with the consequences of breaking from them) OUT OF SELF-INTEREST, then you are lawful evil.

lol Pali

...is that meant to be a counter or an agreement? Actual words will be helpful here.

I think it's been more or less proved in game that lawful evil does not equate to an evil who pays lip service to the laws, but breaks them when they can get away with it. I remember Balinor had a FG warrior with this type of RP and he was constantly being chastised by the Tribunal Imm because of his behavior (just an example, not a diss on that character).

It says in the lawful evil help file that lawful evils will never break the law, out of fear of appearing blasphemous to the Gods of Order.

I agree with Pali's argument that an ethos is what you are, it is not merely a notional box you have to tick to get into various cabals.

If you're lawful, then you are lawful pre-cabal, during cabal, and post-cabal. You do not stop having your ethos just because you are no longer part of an organization that demands you adhere to it. Of course, you can change your ethos through RP and character development, but that's not at issue here.

Lawful evil is tricky to play, partly because FLs notions of evil revolve around psychotic killers and partly because the mechanics of FL itself makes it hard for a lawful evil to be an 'effective' evil rather than just a 'theoretical' evil. I'm not saying it can't be done, but short of being an elder of certain cabals, it is quite hard to assert your power as an evil while remaining within the law. Of course it can be done, but it requires more effort than your standard evils.

Someone should give it a go, and show us how it's done.

Morchial did it quite well. Even though he wasn't lawful, he was able to assert his power in ways other then PK.

I think it's been more or less proved in game that lawful evil does not equate to an evil who pays lip service to the laws' date=' but breaks them when they can get away with it. I remember Balinor had a FG warrior with this type of RP and he was constantly being chastised by the Tribunal Imm because of his behavior (just an example, not a diss on that character).[/quote']

That is not a good example and it has been discussed in the characters deletion thread.

If that certain char had stayed a bit more longer it would have been outcasted and removed from tribunal because he was not acting as lawful. This has been said by an immortal.

Really?I can point a person who have breaken the law a lot and is now elder tribunal.And he is not even an evil.

Actually, since Nekky's point was to use it as an example of how lawful evil precludes such behavior, it IS a perfectly good example. He was making the exact same point you were.

EDIT: Then toss a log of him doing so on Prayer, nightmare, and let the IMMs handle it.

Really?I can point a person who have breaken the law a lot and is now elder tribunal.And he is not even an evil.

Please post some logs, I'd love to see this. LOL

...is that meant to be a counter or an agreement? Actual words will be helpful here.

I wasn't trying to counter you or agree. I thought your post was funny. "lol Pali".... because I think the way you post is funny sometimes. Didn't really have more to share other than that.

Please post some logs' date=' I'd love to see this. LOL[/quote']

There are no logs, you looted a friend of mine with Grum when he died in jail due to drug addiction.