Lotus scourge discussion

Having played 2 lotus scourge, and played against several others, I personally think that lotus is a bit too easy to apply, and way too dangerous to fight with it affecting you. Anything under 600 hp has a very high chance of killing you. 

So I propose this: lotus scourge poisons are crafted ahead of time. Specifically for certain races. If you're carrying your ogrebane, you can infect ogres with the lotus. This also opens thebdoor to possibly having a toxin that can affect unliving as well. The vials have a rot timer, and the skill also gets a brief cooldown(2 to 3 ticks). If you do not have the appropriate vial handy you're just throwing regular poison smoke. This makes you need to be a bit more careful about it instead of just spamming til it hits; which is very easy to land anyway, it also takes away the ability of a ninja to solo areas a ninja shouldn't solo (I've killed every high end mob that isn't undead solo, including: offices, discord, desolation, factions and the end of gear). 

It doesn't kill the path, it just makes it so you have to balance mana vs skill use. Forcing a ninja to use mana to create limited life poisons forces alot more thought into your engagements (skipping undead because of their crazy regen). Cure light, push, vanish, decoy, acupuncture are all key skills in ninja pvp. Having to brew a potion mid combat for 100 mana is a dangerous choice to have to make, and likely will affect the overall fight.

As one who remembers a time when Lotus Scourge faded into extinction for its utter uselessness. It pleases me to see that attention toward it finally came to pass. That said, I have read several complaints by players about the over the top make over it received. I will not pretend to know the fix. I have neither played one, nor been a victim of it. I would offer that there needs to be some attention payed to a couple of aspects in particular. Prog poison should never inflict lotus scourge poison. To begin with, I would likely suggest adding the no_ninja flag to items that prog poison. Also, I believe the poison smoke should be looked into as well. Simply put I believe Lotus Scourge should require envenom.

Just some foolish thoughts.

This is a pretty sweet suggestion.

sounds good to me. i usually don't even bother a fight with lotus ninjas tbh.

Should remove the whole path.  Give it to shamans.  Why a ninja gets better mal than the mal class is confusing.

20 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

Should remove the whole path.  Give it to shamans.  Why a ninja gets better mal than the mal class is confusing.

I can't complain about Bards anymore for this reason. WOOHOO!

My suggestion is to make nerve pinch a pre-requisite to landing lotus scourge, make nerve pinch 1 round lag for lotus scourge ninjas with a duration of 0 or 1 hours. Lore wise it would be hitting pressure points to lower resistance to poison and gameplay wise it provides some kind of counter play (avoiding the duration of nerve etc). 

Alternatively, it could be reverted to where lotus scourge can't override normal poison and the lotus scourge nerve pinch could have a chance to cure poison on the target. That way the tactic would be to cure the targets poison before applying your own. 

The problem with your solution is there still isn't a counter play.

You can’t counter DS OR SA so why should you be able to counter LS? I think the OPs suggestion is a good one and could be tweaked to make it even more costly and/or situational.  Right now a LS ninja has to try very very little to apply such a fight altering poison. And can do so at almost no penalty no matter how many times you cure it....which is extremely difficult

I like the idea for poisoner ninja and the lotus scourge behind it. I haven't played one recently, but had the chance to fight against LS ninjas with 3 characters, so I think that taking 600hp with a poison which lands not that hard is too much. But lowering it to something around 300hp (or 400?) will be much better.

I definitely think it needs looking at. The LS power vs living chars is very strong whereas they are utter trash vs undead.

I don't agree that they need PvE toning. There are plenty of classes that do very well solo, I think LS ninjas should remain in that vein.

1 hour ago, Manual Labour said:

I definitely think it needs looking at. The LS power vs living chars is very strong whereas they are utter trash vs undead.

I don't agree that they need PvE toning. There are plenty of classes that do very well solo, I think LS ninjas should remain in that vein.

But not shamans.  They suck at gathering EQ.  Why cant shamans get a stronger poison.  Is the ninja apothecary so much more skilled?  I mean ninjas get "skills" that debuff enemies quicker than the debuff spell class.  Mos tof which cannot be cured at a healer.  Caltrops, nerve, ikzuichachoo.    Just. Sayin. 😜

^^ how can you compare a ninja and a shaman?  Do ninjas get plague, dysentery?  Cure critical?  Shamans don't "specialize" in poison.  It's also not a traditional poison - it's a miracle.

I like Tarako's idea because it also falls inline with some of the prep other ninja paths have to do.  Finding vuln shurikens, getting that full study for assassinate.  Not sure how the shadow-strike path plays into this but having one path that can be ready at the drop also makes gameplay sense IMO.

I'll be honest the closest anyone came to beating my ass as that decked cleric was narifel.

1 hour ago, 'tarako said:

I'll be honest the closest anyone came to beating my ass as that decked cleric was narifel.

With the saves changes coming out, shamans are going to be in a NASTY spot. Potentially, top 3 PK class in the game.

People keep saying "with the changes to saves, blah blah"...The changes so far are not over the top dramatic.  People will still get saves, they'll just have to be more strategic about swap pieces.  It's having godly hit/damn/AC simultaneously with saves that will be much more difficult as far as I understand.  So far the biggest change I've seen is making moonstone pendant/onyx cross/etc unique.  So shamans will get a passive boost in that most melees with high saves will probably be dealing a bit less damage..but not dramatically less.  That's how I see it anyway shrug

That is because we are literally changing every piece of equipment in the mud to match the point system. Going area by area. It is going to take a long time. When all is said and done you may think differently.

I had a shaman when blackwatch alone was adjusted and it was enough to make a noticeable difference and it will only get better as they move through the areas. 

You're right that its all three of those things combined. I spent like twenty seven tries or something to land blind vs Dranthos only to have his vanguard visor cure it instantly. After a few areas were changed? I landed blasphemy on a dwarf cleric with high -mal saves first shot. I would have kept going on Narifel, but I find the PK extremely boring/tedious. Its just not my flavor.

Of course, that's the sole reason most people dont play them.  They have always been top-tier, especially in Syndi.

But back to LS ninja....

Yea. 66 combined + dwarf and narifel was landing things more or less at will on me lol

48 minutes ago, 'tarako said:

Yea. 66 combined + dwarf and narifel was landing things more or less at will on me lol

you were a sigil? 

a cleric too.  um, co 'spell turning' ? ive never had trouble with a shaman on a cleric.