Require people to play the game for certain things

Currently there are a ton of items sitting on characters that barely log into the game. I've had players log in kill me, loot me, then you never see them again. It's not good for the health of the game, because there quickly becomes nothing to pursue or upgrade, because all the items are sitting on some inactive or bare minimum active character somewhere.

Also, much like the item problem we have elders and leaders of cabals that barely ever log in. There's atleast two I can think of that i've never seen defend the cabal or participate in cabal warefare at elder and leader.

If people are allowed to hoard positions and items, but never log in it degrades the quality of the play experience of everyone around them by denying those experiences to others.

I realize there are currently restrictions in place for rare items and these positions, but they are so crazy loose that people can log in likey 1-2 days a month and be full unique and a leader in a cabal.

I’ve played this game on and off for over twenty years and this particular discussion has come up so many times that most of us could write out every single response that will come up.

Yes, it sucks sometimes. But your mistake is assuming you know exactly how much play time these people log. You’re not on all the time. And what’s the exact amount of time and effort needed to maintain gear or positions? 10 hours a month? 20? 30? I would say the vast majority of players have families and/or children, probably they all have jobs. The more expectation you put on them to engage with the game, the more likely they are to quit.

There isn’t a good answer here and there never really has been.

Seravin wrote:
I’ve played this game on and off for over twenty years and this particular discussion has come up so many times that most of us could write out every single response that will come up.

Yes, it sucks sometimes. But your mistake is assuming you know exactly how much play time these people log. You’re not on all the time. And what’s the exact amount of time and effort needed to maintain gear or positions? 10 hours a month? 20? 30? I would say the vast majority of players have families and/or children, probably they all have jobs. The more expectation you put on them to engage with the game, the more likely they are to quit.

There isn’t a good answer here and there never really has been.

Would you rather the player who is active quit or the one who struggles to be active? There's never going to be a perfect middle ground, but it's not doing anyone any favors to cater to the leader who logs in, reads notes... maybe approves a few apps then logs out. If you're hearts not in it, it's probably best to get out of the way and let the people with the time to handle those roles fill them.

Now that we have unique gear it creates situations where you may have an opponent with a specific vuln and the only item you have to reliably hit that vuln is unique, but you can't acquire it, so you're kinda stuck with an impossible to solve puzzle. I like the idea of uniques and all, because godsuits are also bad for the game, but It's sorta messy in it's current implementation.

I'm also not suggesting you can't have a full time job, a family, a bunch of hobbies and also be Trusted in a cabal in rare gear. But, Honestly I don't think we should let inactive people hold E or L positions or hoard uniques... for the sake of the people who are actively logging in trying to keep the mud interactive and interesting for others. It's an ecosystem like any other and if it's not nurtured, it dies out due to lack of interest or ability to stay interesting.

And who decides who has done enough to keep their positions or gear?

You? Me? The imms?

No thanks. I don’t want to see some subjective system of player or imm deciding if I logged enough hours or defended my cabal with enough effort or rped good enough.

People are going to hoard gear. People with leadership in a cabal aren’t going to give up their spots until they decide they’re done or miss the hour requirements.

I understand your frustration but unless you come up with a solution that hasn’t been discussed in all this time then there isn’t much else to say. I’ve been in your position. I’ve played chars where I couldn’t find rares for my chars yet nobody ever seemed to be wearing them. Uniques that I never saw on a player or the mob for a month or more.

But trying to target players/characters whose choices you disagree with will end up more punishing to casual or typical players more often than not. The guy holding all the weapons that target their vuln on their other character won’t have any qualms about idling out 20 hours since he’s already doing the 10 or whatever it is. It will make the person who can only put in a couple hours on the weekend lose their stuff and give up.

Seravin wrote:
And who decides who has done enough to keep their positions or gear?

You? Me? The imms?

No thanks. I don’t want to see some subjective system of player or imm deciding if I logged enough hours or defended my cabal with enough effort or rped good enough.

People are going to hoard gear. People with leadership in a cabal aren’t going to give up their spots until they decide they’re done or miss the hour requirements.

I understand your frustration but unless you come up with a solution that hasn’t been discussed in all this time then there isn’t much else to say. I’ve been in your position. I’ve played chars where I couldn’t find rares for my chars yet nobody ever seemed to be wearing them. Uniques that I never saw on a player or the mob for a month or more.

But trying to target players/characters whose choices you disagree with will end up more punishing to casual or typical players more often than not. The guy holding all the weapons that target their vuln on their other character won’t have any qualms about idling out 20 hours since he’s already doing the 10 or whatever it is. It will make the person who can only put in a couple hours on the weekend lose their stuff and give up.

It does seem like the current staff is more likely to implement suggestions, I get that you've probably heard it all, but ya I'd prefer a subjective system over personal greed. People simply just holding onto positions out of what i assume is pride is just destructive.

@Seravin is right on the money here.

You have indeed brought forth a suggestion, but I'm reluctant to call what you've brought forward an idea. Basically, this is an ages-old problem where we have to balance choosing who to punish and who to reward for something that is, ultimately, completely arbitrary - i.e., how many hours is enough hours? How active is active enough?

When the question is asked who gets to decide, ultimately the answer is the staff, because we implemented the current mechanics that govern rare and cabal purges. Currently, those limits are as loose as they have been in the entire history of the game, predominantly because we're all 20 years older than we were when we started and have more responsibilities, conflicts, alternate priorities, etc. It's hard for the staff to hold it against people that they have families/kids, demanding jobs, friends/social lives, other hobbies, other games they play, etc. because most of us do too.

That said, the point is taken (as it always is) and acknowledged, but to Seravin's point, none of the ideas we've batted around internally (or ideas that have been proposed externally) have gained much momentum because it ultimately comes down to the shitty proposition of having to tell someone "You have to sacrifice part(s) of your real life to hold onto X item or Y cabal rank". And we've never found or felt there was a truly fair way to do that, mechanically. We do try to keep an eye on it informally, as best we can, outside of the scheduled purges.

Sandbox wrote:
Seravin wrote:
And who decides who has done enough to keep their positions or gear?

You? Me? The imms?

No thanks. I don’t want to see some subjective system of player or imm deciding if I logged enough hours or defended my cabal with enough effort or rped good enough.

People are going to hoard gear. People with leadership in a cabal aren’t going to give up their spots until they decide they’re done or miss the hour requirements.

I understand your frustration but unless you come up with a solution that hasn’t been discussed in all this time then there isn’t much else to say. I’ve been in your position. I’ve played chars where I couldn’t find rares for my chars yet nobody ever seemed to be wearing them. Uniques that I never saw on a player or the mob for a month or more.

But trying to target players/characters whose choices you disagree with will end up more punishing to casual or typical players more often than not. The guy holding all the weapons that target their vuln on their other character won’t have any qualms about idling out 20 hours since he’s already doing the 10 or whatever it is. It will make the person who can only put in a couple hours on the weekend lose their stuff and give up.

It does seem like the current staff is more likely to implement suggestions, I get that you've probably heard it all, but ya I'd prefer a subjective system over personal greed. People simply just holding onto positions out of what i assume is pride is just destructive.

Edited 11 minutes ago

I don't think anyone (or at least most people) are holding onto these things out of pride. I think they just feel that they have earned them and continue to be active enough to merit keeping them (a sentiment that our mechanics support).

That said, the one area of this that is looked at more closely by staff beyond the mechanics are the senior cabal positions. If someone has a cabal elder/leader position and actively avoids engaging with their cabal enemies (or their cabalmates, for that matter), we will address it. But even then, play schedules vary and conflict, and you may have a cabal elder or leader that simply never sees the members of the opposing cabal. So even then, there are complexities and nuances that we can't reasonably address even when looking at certain elements subjectively.

ya, you both make some fair points and i appreciate you taking the time to discuss with me.