Herb Addiction

With all the Herbs/scrolls/consumables Melles get all the protections in the world very easily.  This was the ADVANTAGE of playing a mage back in the day.  These things just did not exist. Now a melle can have every protection in the world.

Oh well mages can get them as well........They don't need them, that is the point of a freaken mage.  This should come at a price, or I should be allowed to play a mage and be able to kick dirt by smoking/smoke a drug that allows me to disarm/smoke a drug that lets me bash.

"That is so crazy Izzy."  Exactly, that is why smoking herbs should come at a greater cost.

A decked mage vs a decked melee loses 9/10 times. Prove me wrong, anyone. Why? because a melee can have access to almost 60% of what am mage gets.. yet, a mage can't get any access to what a melee gets.

This is getting off topic again, but to be fair @sarcon, although the melee might win the majority of the fights, the actual kill to death ratio of a top melee is much worse than the mage. This is easily shown by how the top mages (casters in general) can have incredible records such as no deaths or 500-1, whereas the best melees in FL's history all have at least a handful of deaths, usually several, especially if they live as long as the mage (which melees typically don't, due to long-term survivability issues).

@Wade Nothing too extraordinary about @f0xx's claim that dispel wins many fights. It is an over simplification, but my own experience is that dispel coupled with the landing of an unexpected malediction (dispelled then blinded, dispelled then poisoned) is what has led me to victory over other top tier players. It also usually takes an additional mistake on the part of the other player on top of this, such as a panicked recall/teleport or poor movement management.

Against non-top tier, dispel is nice, but not a critical component of a kill. Those kills are usually due to aggression management (how and win to press an advantage/mistake) and initiative control (speed + timing) rather than tactically forcing/waiting for an unwinnable situation (dispel + mal, for instance). Typically this is compounded and even made possible by a massive gear advantage between the top tier and non-top tier.

11 minutes ago, sarcon said:

A decked mage vs a decked melee loses 9/10 times. Prove me wrong, anyone. Why? because a melee can have access to almost 60% of what am mage gets.. yet, a mage can't get any access to what a melee gets.

What exactly to melees have that mages don't have?

Mages definitely have access to ridiculously high HP, great saves and great -ac. Most of the mages I fight today have higher HP than me, and they don't really have to sacrifice anything for it. Does this make "sense" or is it equal? I don't know.

Are you talking about specific melee class skills like bash, bodyslam or dirt kick? Of course mages don't get those (although they can blind in other ways). Melees don't get access to similar mage skills either like dancing blade, protective shield or hellstream. 

Things like recall and sanctuary are not optional extras in PK at 50 that only mages should have easy access to. They are totally essential for all classes at 50.

Again, I am not against some kind of change to herbs, but I do think this "mages are gimped compared to melees" hysteria is getting blown out of proportion. I would like to know who all these mages are that are getting 2-rounded as some of the posters above have claimed. I am decked and playing a class that is supposed to be tough for mages, and I'm not 2-rounding anyone. 

Sure, Kotrag and Kelmi are tough. But they're tough for any class, and are not a good example of melees being overpowered.

The. Scenario has to be perfect for a mage to get two rounded.  

Lejarak never got two rounded.  Mages beat melee hands down.   Melees NEED the uber hit/dam to be competitive.  They need the herbs.

Sure, but where are all the mages then if they're the best? I'm not discrediting your claim but I'm a man of statistics and the stats don't back up your claim. 

Also, Lejarak is never a good example. He was an outlier and the level of ac stacking isn't possible anymore. Not to mention an invoker that can lag is always gonna be lethal =P

Name the top 5 melees you can think of throughout any time period. Do the same with mages. Compare their records.

I played lejarak well into the ac toning and had no troubles.  I never needed the Traven to pk, it was more used for pve.  I had my share of close fights with neutral Mino warriors but I won.   If lejarak isn't a good example then rapacialant.  He didn't stack AC he was a cleric.   Top mages could have lasted forever because we very very rarely died.  The chars themselves ended chars from boredom.

I have heard stories about Belderan/Raynald as a Tribunal/Draug/Kotrag/Kelmi  I have heard of two mages being successful during this time.  Viruthx/Lellaila.

Though I have only recently come back.

9 hours ago, Celerity said:

Name the top 5 melees you can think of throughout any time period. Do the same with mages. Compare their records.

Is it possible that the top tier PKers prefer melee classes to mages?

Take me, for example, I will never play a mage. Why? I don't like them. I don't like them in any game. Never have.

3 minutes ago, Trick said:

Take me, for example, I will never play a mage. Why? I don't like them. I don't like them in any game. Never have.

I do not like them, Sam I am.

I do not like those mage games I've ran.

I do not like them here or there.

I do not like them anywhere.

2 minutes ago, Trick said:

Is it possible

Yes. But is it probable?

18 hours ago, Manual Labour said:

Two rounds of lag in combat is too much, the whole point of smoking in combat is to combat dispel or remove magic. If you make the lag 2 rounds to smoke it defeats the whole purpose, you will just get dispelled and hit before you can re-apply.

That is what saves are for, to prevent spells from landing like that. I favor non combat smoking over lag, because it forces characters to flee, like in the old days. They can still eat a pill, but they are eating a crap sanctuary and will need to reapply shortly.

I would like to nominate Sylf and Thulgan.

11 hours ago, Wade said:

Exactly. Extraordinary claims require proof, he could easily debunk all arguments with some.

It's not that. I'm just bored and like to read logs.

Hmm.

Well, @Nekky melee can cast Icicle. I like the complexity of the initial Idea. I would offer that the pill maker needs an upgrade before such a thing is implemented. Why not a pharmacist in every town, let me take the herbs and get non addictive pills. ;)

On mages not getting melee stuff, and melees getting mage stuff. If your mage had the Talisman of Tripping, and you could trip your opponents, and you do, you just missed out on doing all the things you could/should have been doing. Using the Icicle mentioned above means my warrior couldn't trip that round. Its not as special as you think, unless used as a surprise. Heh

also spell forged items have a low proficiency. losing concentration on a spell in combat as a melee lags you, wastes mana, and does nothing.

as far back as I can recall (we talking over 10 years) melees have had access to consumables for detect invis, armor, shield, stone skin, bless, flight, sanctuary, frenzy, and protection.

the only thing that has changed is that players are better and take less risks.

if two decked characters fight it is not as simple as melee wins 9/10 times. sure the melee has more reliable damage but the mage has more survivability in most cases but when everything goes right for the mage it can be all over for the melee. It comes down to playstyle and preference, I really dont think mages are gimped at all.

edit: also if you can easily dispel someones sanctuary as a mage then just keep doing it, who cares if they smoke a leaf. If you dispel them 10 times you can recover that mana back in 2 ticks, meanwhile they just lost a lot of farming. Mages can win by attrition in the long run. Seems like most players just dont have the patience to play a successful mage, rather than that mages are somehow gimped.

I'm not sure why people are bringing up spell forged items. Not only are they usually 50% or below with proficiency, but they're usually rare when they give you a spell.

Why do all melees suddenly get icicle under those pretenses, and why would it be better than a mage who will likely never lose their concentration (barring some other skills?)

It isn't. The icicle earpiece while promising has a to low proficiency to be useful. You will miss more than half the times for not that great damage. At least kick doesn't cost mana. Could be interesting as an opener for a ninja/thief (after backstab)

2 hours ago, Manual Labour said:

edit: also if you can easily dispel someones sanctuary as a mage then just keep doing it, who cares if they smoke a leaf. If you dispel them 10 times you can recover that mana back in 2 ticks, meanwhile they just lost a lot of farming. Mages can win by attrition in the long run. Seems like most players just dont have the patience to play a successful mage, rather than that mages are somehow gimped.

Most mages take 1 round of lag to dispel. And spells fail with no saves ~50% of the time. F00x is right that the best use for dispel is when your oponent is lagged. So that he cannot put up sanctuary while you pelt him up