Moving Away from IMM-Permission Cabal Inductions and Promotions

I would like to see the following implemented:

After you join a clan, if you have fulfilled 25 clan quests and 72 hours have passed, you are automatically permitted to send an app in to the cabal.

I would also like to see some firm criteria for movement from V to T. We have several cabals, such as Watcher, where this is in dire need.

We lose players who join a clan and cannot move forward, or who join a cabal and cannot get promoted within reasonable time frames, or who have no reference for how to move forward.

The best solution is to automate movement from clans to cabals, and to take out any ambiguity about cabal promotions from V to T.

I thought V to T had some form of rp points minimum that prevented you from getting promoted.

You'd see a lot more in game activity from this as well. At this point it's perhaps too little, too late, imm controlled cabals was one of the biggest shifts towards this games downfall. The time investment/reward ratio became way too much for most people. In a game where you're supposed to be able to have all this creative control and be whatever/whoever you want to be...having some other human with their own agenda, personal schedule, etc be in control of a large aspect of your experience...

Before I rant anymore, I just wanna give this idea a big +1

Point well made, but I'm out of the loop and all with getting into clans/cabals.

Wait time from clan entry to cabal application permission varies by cabal and by player. Currently, a cabal imm must intervene to give a clan member the permission to apply, at which point cabal members vote on entrance.  I would like to see it standardized, made more fluid, and automated. No imm intervention should be required to send a cabal application. The experience should be the same independent of any one character or player, and the average wait time reduced significantly through this process.

I remember having to allow peeps to apply and I used it more for getting to know them, snoop them, etc. It never was, that I remember, a matter of me not being around or having time. There was a case or two of different time zones so I got other staff to keep an eye out, got my cabal people to keep an eye out and whatnot. Still, I probably pissed people off anyway...heehee.

I do get your point, it can get frustrating.

We don't forget people. We just have requirements. Those requirements are different for each cabal and go with the RP/purpose of the cabal in question.

Naruthiron, with respect, it is not a complaint. Rather, it is a suggested change to make the clan to cabal transition standardized and automated.

I think it'd be a good step in the right direction to implement along those lines. I mean sometimes even staffers have to be away for days at a time. This would also help greatly for cabals that don't have a direct imm at the moment. And if someone who is unfit gets in then the Imm leader can always correct such at the time when that behavior presents itself. I think trusted should be an automatic position as well, but with a longer duration that the progress prior to it. Say perhaps 20-30 hrs. After that it can be at the imm's pleasure to promote/demote. Also, I would recomend that staffers do have a way to block problematic people from advancing to T if such is deemed necessary.

Cabal promotions, from my experience, are dependent on many, many things. They range from a character's RP, PK, and their overall ability to handle that position. Not only that, but the IMMs consider the player behind the character as well. Standards change depending on who the player is. IMMs will see that a particular player has excelled or struggled in the past and expectations will rise or fall accordingly.

I can see merit in both sides of this argument and I've argued in favor of both of them throughout my time here. Its a difficult thing to impose a time limit when you certain players can reach those times in a week and another player won't be able to power game through those standards. The biggest thing, in my opinion, is directly comparing yourself to another player. I've seen many, many times where another player has rolled a character, gotten 50, into a cabal, and gone through Inductee to Elder and even Leader, before I am able to make a single promotion. This is EXTREMELY frustrating as you're left wondering what the hell is going on? Asking for a promotion is basically a death sentence and you're sure as HELL not going to get it if you ask for it.

Warmaster, for example, promotes very, very quickly. Watcher, on the other hand, is probably the most "ignored" of all the cabals in the game. And all the others fall in between depending on the IMM's mood or play times. What would work?

Some brainstorming:

If a specific cabal is under three(two?) members then automatic induction is in effect until that number is reached. Characters will be moved from Trusted in Clan to Cabal Inductee using an approved criteria set in place by the IMMs.

Elders are capable of inducting characters into the cabal if the cabal IMM or delegated IMM in charge bestows that power TO the Elder. If your cabal does not have an Immortal currently, then you can seek approval via application. 

Leaders are capable of inducting characters into the cabal and promoting characters up to Trusted. Leaders may submit a vote of promotion or a note to the Immortals requesting a promotion of a character in their ranks to the position of Elder. At any time the Cabal IMM can deny, demote, or remove any member, or potential member, as they are the overall authority of that cabal. If the leader is found abusing this power or is suspected of OOC behavior, then they will be demoted to Trusted, or worse, depending on the severity of their actions. 

Leaders must have a valid reason for every action they do and will be expected to justifiably answer for them. IE: Why did you promote an inductee of two days to Trusted already?

Of course, the Elders and Leaders will have the same power when demoting a person. If they feel you are to be demoted then they will have the authority equal to their authority to promote with the exception that a demotion or removal, in the case of a Leader, will require a note to the cabal IMM detailing why this happened. IE: Insubordination, attempted coup, breaking Knight Commandments, what have you. Elders/Leaders will need a GOOD reason to demote and an even better reason to remove a character as this can be a very steep punishment. 

I am 100% in favor of giving Leaders MORE control of their cabals. Leader is terribly difficult to get and it is basically the pinnacle of our character's progression. Yes, RP can always progress and you can always achieve more through it, but leader is often seen as a crowning achievement to a character's life. It should not just be a nifty cabal power.

On 5/5/2016 at 10:58 AM, Morlhach said:

If it gets abused, we take care of it.

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This change is long overdue.

PS. The formatting of the new forum sucks.

To make this discussion a little easier for everyone that has questions/doubts maybe put out what the baseline requirements are: hours at each rank/ rp points to move up/ clan points per rank. There are always going to be the intangibles because each IMM has a different standard that they hold people to. If you feel you aren't being inducted/promoted then don't hesitate to send a note to the clan/cabal IMM asking for a meet to discuss it but have your ducks in a row and sound reasoning as to why you think you deserve it.

The problems with the current system are:

1. Different immortals have different criteria

2. Different immortals have different playtimes. If you have a different playtime than the IMM that runs your cabal, then tough luck.

3. IMMs are only humans and suffer from the same problems all humans suffer - we tend to get a bit inactive now and then, we tend to be biased.

There are 2 ways to solve this:

1. Create a system that can run independently from the IMMs.

2. Create a team that runs ALL the cabals at once. Not one IMM per cabal. A team that is responsible for them ALL. This way you will have similar criteria, more coverage and less bias.

Not to derail the thread but what is more frustrating is when you apply for something and you're not good enough.....it feels like it drags on and on until you are just ready to give it up and move on to another project. Wish they'd just tell me no, don't even have to do it politely.

A fyi:

the imm in charge of a cabal will do clan list (clanname) from time to time. Active members get listed, the more clan quests you have, the higher you are in the list.

If you do not even show up in the list as you haven't done any clan quests, the Imm might not even be aware of you.

As for apps, usually best to send in a few journal or rp logs, that will speed it up. if you do not do that, you have to be lucky and rp just when an Imm is watching you. That will take time.

Tis messed up, I tell ye...

Anume, we know how it works now. But what do you think of this new idea?

I'm new but this seems like a good idea and it looks like everyone is for it.

My cabal standards are really easy, and kind of exactly how a Knight should act, but people somehow take a long time to reach them. From experience, it's not really a lack of Imm (watcher being an exception. Cabal is cursed) but a lack on the player side. Investment stays pretty low. I once had a character with over 50 clan quests at 30. I can't get 50s to break 1/4 of that and wonder why I don't let them in.

Cabals are not meant to be guarantees.

I'm not salty, and I don't hold any fault or grudge against players. But I've never once had a player ask me why I'm not letting them apply without them inventing their own reasons to accuse me of less-than-honorable conduct because they didn't get a chance to apply or, god forbid, T.

These ideas always end up the same way. IMM vs Player. The PBase feels like Elder and Leader should come with the appropriate level of control over their cabals and the IMMs fight it and eventually squash the idea or it loses steam and the PBase just lets it die. I don't understand why it has to be this way. Instead of posting your criteria and that the players are just failing to live up to your expectations, why not compromise or consider the PBase's idea of allowing people the opportunity to govern their own cabals. Ultimately you're the one bestowing that privilege and power TO the character, so its still your final say. You're not losing authority by allowing a mortal character to have some authority in what happens.

I've had an elder in every cabal except Savant and a Leader in one. I rarely feel like I am in charge of anything. I've asked to see that clan quest list as an Elder and Leader in a clan and was told its an IMM only privilege. Like I said above, these positions don't really "mean" shit. What are the things you get from these positions? You get to be called whatever nifty little title goes with it, you get that position's cabal power(the only perk), and you get blamed for everything that happens beneath your level. IE: You're Knight Elder and Knight Member gangs Nexus Veteran and kills him, Knight Elder is blamed for not "appropriately teaching the Commandments" and loses CPs for it. Great.. Now I am being held responsible for someone I have no real authority to manage.( Knight was used as an example. ) 

Can this change open up a new can of worms? Yes, absolutely. I can see players holding OOC grudges towards characters that have killed their other characters, but the very same thing can be said of the IMMs towards other characters. It happens and its understandable.. Bias exists regardless of position. But, Morlhach has said, which f0xx quoted, that if there is abuse then it will be dealt with. 

What's the harm in just trying it for a bit? If it turns out that it sucks and its making the game swing too far outta whack, then just take that control back.