Mordred Feral Ninja Watcher vs Belvicet Human Necro Tribunal

I think the bias comes from the fact that a warrior is supposed to be able to do that as they don't have much else to do against a mage. Yeah, maybe their lore will help, but overall its weapon choice + 3rd/4th attack. That's what they DO. 

A ninja has a MUCH larger pool of tactics to draw from including strangle, jutsu, poison, blind, push, caltraps, ikuzachi, as well as having 3rd attack and fired weapons going off. To add to it even further, if you do manage to take some damage you have acupuncture to get you out of some bad spots and even cure light if things get really, really desperate. 

Also, I believe that fact that you are bragging about not using all your skills available to win is another example that proves those that believe ninjas might be overtuned are right. 

Edit: Taking that aside, the necromancer did not play this smart or even remotely strategic at all. They made some glaring mistakes that, although may not have won the fight, might have saved them from losing it as well. This log doesn't necessarily show ninja strength any more than another log would, but its just the log where this discussion happened to come up.

I think the biggest indicator is that you can directly compare ninjas to actual melee characters. Ninjas aren't pure melee, they are rogues. The fact you CAN openly compare them to actual melee is a good indicator that they are a bit out of whack. This log isn't really a good indicator. As several people have said the necro was likely gonna lose regardless (no offense intended belvicet). The only people who seem to disagree, and that ninjas are fine, are people playing ninjas.

Interesting points but I still just see bias. Can you guys verbalize this in terms of tactics? Again I only used strangle, 3 attacks, haste. Many classes can do the same or more in terms of melee. 

@Tarako Not having to utilize all skills available to me in that particular scenario has nothing to do with ninjas but how FL works. If one player is prepared and has multiple advantages they'll get the upper hand. Though I am curious about this documentation you're referring to on ninjas having advantages against melee classes? Alot of classes have melee capabilities under certain circumstances. Druids, Clerics, Dk's etc. I personally feel that only DS ninjas can be compared to an actual melee class. I understand that they're supposed to be a rogue with burst dmg but I never agreed with them having two handed. 

@Trick Not sure why you keep lumping your short experience with DS ninjas with the other 4 specialties. Anyway your thoughts seem a bit contradictory. You say I have all these tactics to use, then say my non-use of them is proof ninjas are too strong? This has nothing to do with bragging (the win doesn't mean anything and I could care less if he beats me the next day). The point of the log was to tell the player about nofollow as I don't like going ooc in the game when he seemed to have no clue about it and to point out the issue I have with wimpy.  I prefer to focus on the actual details behind your opinions. I needed to point out that the only ninja skill I used was strangle. Is that the op skill? Tsuki strike hit for one maul and one graze, should we remove tsuki strike? Was it there availability of haste? Should we bar ninjas from it? You keep reiterating your own personal scenarios with broad statements and don't offer solutions they also don't mean as much without the logs.

Anonymous poster hash: d7742...0f8

FYI Lanmotte Warrior, Gimblee Ranger, and Krgut Warrior have already outmelee'd me.

Mordred

Anonymous poster hash: d7742...0f8

Not sure why people that play a particular class are so adamant about saying they are completely fine. It tends to flip the other way though when they are the one on the losing end against that combo. Not sure why you're being so sarcastic about the "one" skill you used, but I can break it down Barney style for you okay, bud?

My short experience with DS ninjas put me up against the highest skilled characters and highest cabal ranked characters in the game at that time. This, to me, proves that ninjas don't need the cabal skills or the EQ advantage necessary to win as I didn't have those at the beginning and yet I still won out. Why? Is it because I am some God-tiered PKer than only needs a practice sword to win? Hardly. Its the fact that ninjas have a very large toolkit, solid thac0, and as a DS I had autothrow and two handed. I will agree that DS are definitely the stronger melee focused ninja path.

My point is: you DO have all these tools at your disposable that are SUPPOSED to be utilized fully for the ninja to gain the upperhand and win, but you didn't NEED to use them to win. You just murder spammed out and got the kill. 

My point is: Ninjas are NOT warriors and they need to set up their victories with a little more finesse by using caltraps, poison, blind, nerve, strangle, decoy, push, and all those other skills to win. You just murder spammed out and got the kill.

My point is: Ninjas were given these skills to weaken their opponents so that the battle was in their favor through TACTICS AND STRATEGY.** **You just murder spammed out and got the kill.

Should I keep breaking it down further for you or do you understand what I am saying?

EDIT and disclaimer: Well, because his post was removed, my post looks hyper-aggressive. I was responding to his sarcasm with the above.

Specify your name in anon posts or they disappear. Thank you.

4 minutes ago, Trick said:

Not sure why people that play a particular class are so adamant about saying they are completely fine. It tends to flip the other way though when they are the one on the losing end against that combo. Not sure why you're being so sarcastic about the "one" skill you used, but I can break it down Barney style for you okay, bud?

My short experience with DS ninjas put me up against the highest skilled characters and highest cabal ranked characters in the game at that time. This, to me, proves that ninjas don't need the cabal skills or the EQ advantage necessary to win as I didn't have those at the beginning and yet I still won out. Why? Is it because I am some God-tiered PKer than only needs a practice sword to win? Hardly. Its the fact that ninjas have a very large toolkit, solid thac0, and as a DS I had autothrow and two handed. I will agree that DS are definitely the stronger melee focused ninja path.

My point is: you DO have all these tools at your disposable that are SUPPOSED to be utilized fully for the ninja to gain the upperhand and win, but you didn't NEED to use them to win. You just murder spammed out and got the kill. 

My point is: Ninjas are NOT warriors and they need to set up their victories with a little more finesse by using caltraps, poison, blind, nerve, strangle, decoy, push, and all those other skills to win. You just murder spammed out and got the kill.

My point is: Ninjas were given these skills to weaken their opponents so that the battle was in their favor through **TACTICS AND STRATEGY. **You just murder spammed out and got the kill.

Should I keep breaking it down further for you or do you understand what I am saying?

Break it down all you want. And completely ignore the fact that I believe DS ninjas aren't completely fine and that I'm trying to understand why you feel the other paths aren't fine. You still don't seem to get it. **Many **classes can use the same murder spam to win this particular pk. You said this yourself "This log doesn't necessarily show ninja strength any more than another log would, but its just the log where this discussion happened to come up."

The purpose of the log was to point out other issues yet somehow Ninjas OP took over the log that IN YOUR VERY OWN WORDS doesn't necessarily show ninja strength. That's the definition of bias.

Mordred

Anonymous poster hash: d7742...0f8

I, myself, belive that ninjas got a bit of a high tHaco mby.  To be honest I hardly bother trying to strangle and go directly for the dirt kick. I am a melee oriented ninja specificly dressed to for all scenario combat, so you would imagine I am not great on Hir/Dam, nor that great on saves. Yet...I win most of my fights with dirt kick and murder. I am a SA and need to be in combat to actually take advantage of it. I am almost a 100% certain I can beat any warrior at this moment, but I would have to utilize all the skills in the ninja set.. Definitely not doable by outmeeling the warrior.

Tanjiro

Anonymous poster hash: 3c81c...9a1

How is that bias? Bias would mean no matter what I would be against it. Whether they were strong, weak, balanced, neutral, or deleted I would be against it, right? THAT is biased. What I am doing is saying they are unbalanced. I like the class and I personally enjoy the concept and design of the class. 

The fact that you ARE a different path and utilized a strategy designed for the doublesheath or even shadow-arts path shows that it isn't the PATH that is the issue, but the offensive ability of the ninja class as a whole. 

YOUR path is designed to strangle through poison in order to set up the victory, but you didn't NEED to set it up as the base ninja class was good enough without it. Had you gone fully out with the prep-work on the strangle front and it was needed to ensure the victory, I'd be all for it. That's what YOUR path is designed for, but you didn't. You didn't NEED to. You would have won without strangling one bit. 

I'm not saying any of the paths are broken or OP. What I am saying is the ninja class as a whole, with or without the paths, is not balanced. When you throw in the paths, they become even more over the top.

A Feral Hasted won with murder. Thats one of the best strategies for ferals. Its their strength.

Has he tried that vs a mounted Paladin with a firelance and missile shield and this would be very different.

Before this gets too far out of hand...

I want to be clear that I am NOT against Mordred, the player, or anyone that plays the ninja class. I played bards for a long time when they were TOTALLY broken, so I'm not condemning him or insulting him or his character. Play what you want and I hope you have fun. That is what this is about. Fun.

I am saying that I think ninjas could stand to lose a little offense and be forced to set up their fights a bit more and that's what the paths are supposed to do. Give ninjas a specialized tool to fill that gap in offense and win the fight.

Sigh lol I'll leave the subject alone on that one.

Ok lets keep this simple. So in this one scenario, do you believe that a class with 3rd attack, fired weapons, a rokujan/fang, and haste should not be able to do that?

Mordred

Anonymous poster hash: d7742...0f8

6 minutes ago, Anonymous said:

Sigh lol I'll leave the subject alone on that one.

Ok lets keep this simple. So in this one scenario, do you believe that a class with 3rd attack, fired weapons, a rokujan/fang, and haste should not be able to do that?

Mordred

Anonymous poster hash: d7742...0f8

If that is how the class is SUPPOSED to work, then its totally fine and working as intended, but I do not think that is how ninjas are conceptually supposed to run.

Like I said before, ninjas are designed to set up a victory in a rogue-like manner through debuffs and surprise. Your path, in particular, is designed to set up a fight better than any other by strangling through poison to land your debuffs and begin a fight with the upperhand. That's what a ROGUE is. What you did was what a WARRIOR would do. Each ninja has a path that is supposed to fill in an offensive gap, but that gap isn't there and THAT is what is wrong with the class.

Is what I'm saying making sense?

3 minutes ago, Anonymous said:

Sigh lol I'll leave the subject alone on that one.

Ok lets keep this simple. So in this one scenario, do you believe that a class with 3rd attack, fired weapons, a rokujan/fang, and haste should not be able to do that?

Mordred

Anonymous poster hash: d7742...0f8

I would think any class with that setup should be able to do that.  However, there are also counters to that in high ac, playing the attrition game better or some cabal skills.

Here are two things you did not mention here in this scenario that have to be done vs a general ninja.

1. have a way to poison yourself which cuts YOUR regen.  No other straight melee classes do you have to worry about that, and you noticed he tried poisoning himself.

2. Have to find a way to keep them in combat.  No other melee class can hide or get away as quickly with vanish.  Thieves at least have to flee first and hide first.  Rangers as well.

The point is, the actual combat of this fight only represents one part of the battle.  The preparation that has to go into fighting any ninja currently is a bit high.  Let's look at a ranger in comparison.  A feral ranger would hit harder due to pets.  Even with the same weapons, the added damage would hurt.  However, the necro wouldn't have to had poisoned himself which means he gets full regen to play the attrition game.  Even against an archer, there is only a 'chance' to put someone to sleep.

I think that is what @Trick is pointing out.

RTrick is just trying to say that as it stands ninjas don't need any kind of setup to win through spamming murder. No nerve, no caltraps, no blindness dust. Just spam murder is all it takes vs a fair amount of the available classes. Your kills should require some setup, where in most ninja logs they dont. You don't need to land nerve, ucaltraps, poison or blindness a large amount of the time. You are arguing that a warrior can do the same thing, but that is entirely tricks point. That is what a warrior does, dirt and melee output. Having rogues that do it better ,with less eq, is what a ninja does. You need less saves, and less hit dam, with jutsu as well. There isn't really a downside to playing a ninja.

14 minutes ago, Archbishop Monk said:

I would think any class with that setup should be able to do that.  However, there are also counters to that in high ac, playing the attrition game better or some cabal skills.

Here are two things you did not mention here in this scenario that have to be done vs a general ninja.

1. have a way to poison yourself which cuts YOUR regen.  No other straight melee classes do you have to worry about that, and you noticed he tried poisoning himself.

2. Have to find a way to keep them in combat.  No other melee class can hide or get away as quickly with vanish.  Thieves at least have to flee first and hide first.  Rangers as well.

 

The point is, the actual combat of this fight only represents one part of the battle.  The preparation that has to go into fighting any ninja currently is a bit high.  Let's look at a ranger in comparison.  A feral ranger would hit harder due to pets.  Even with the same weapons, the added damage would hurt.  However, the necro wouldn't have to had poisoned himself which means he gets full regen to play the attrition game.  Even against an archer, there is only a 'chance' to put someone to sleep.

I think that is what @Trick is pointing out.

One of those points, ac was nerfed a bit since chesta and his invoker rampage yes?

1 minute ago, Trick said:

If that is how the class is SUPPOSED to work, then its totally fine and working as intended, but I do not think that is how ninjas are conceptually supposed to run.

Like I said before, ninjas are designed to set up a victory in a rogue-like manner through debuffs and surprise. Your path, in particular, is designed to set up a fight better than any other by strangling through poison to land your debuffs and begin a fight with the upperhand. That's what a ROGUE is. What you did was what a WARRIOR would do. Each ninja has a path that is supposed to fill in an offensive gap. 

Is what I'm saying making sense?

No because you keep ignoring the easy question I'm giving you and keep attaching the word ninja to it and highlighting other theoretical matchups that aren't applicable here lol. 

All classes with those tools I mentioned can do that. We both have had some rivalries over the years and are both probably considered great pk'ers that have influence on others. But you have a tendency to make broad statements that I'll paraphrase @Anumeon, may misinform other players and doesn't always help.

For instance my average breath saves changed significantly pre vs post eq re-balancing. This has a significant impact on Bard balance that wasn't there just a few weeks ago. Its not right to keep up the negative perception of them unless new substantial evidence is provided. Sadly I hear we lost a player due to it.

@Archbishop Monk1.In my experience this doesn't necessarily have to be done as much compared to thieves, its much more game breaking to get your eq stolen. Nevertheless this is an advantage to playing a ninja or thief not sure what the issue is. 2. Yes this does add to there survivability that no other class really has I'll agree with you there. Though I've never seen it be a big issue in logs yet. Maybe Imms can give there input on whether its no longer needed for them and should be removed.

@Tarakoagain nothing other classes with those skills I mentioned can't do, not just warriors, dk's, druids you're being very selective with words I used. If jutsu is the issue lets bring it up in a different pk log. As it wasn't applicable here.

Mordred

Anonymous poster hash: d7742...0f8

5 minutes ago, Anonymous said:

 

@Archbishop Monk1.In my experience this doesn't necessarily have to be done as much compared to thieves, its much more game breaking to get your eq stolen. Nevertheless this is an advantage to playing a ninja or thief not sure what the issue is. 2. Yes this does add to there survivability that no other class really has I'll agree with you there. Though I've never seen it be a big issue in logs yet. Maybe Imms can give there input on whether its no longer needed for them and should be removed.

The issue with the first point you showed in the log.  You pushed his offense and defense away from him by pushing the mummy.  You could do this freely because he was strangled.  Can a thief remove the mummy like that?  A warrior?  No.  But, does a ninja then require having the offense of either of those because he can do that?

Edit: I am not against Mordred in any way either.  I actually enjoy the character, so I am just looking at the capabilities from this log and the many other ninja I have faced.

The reason I am expanding onto the question is that your question isn't just a yes or no question. You WANT me to answer it so you can say you're right, but the question is more complex than that. Quoting others to try to make me look like I don't know what I am saying won't win you this either. My broad statements are usually correct, but in this thread alone we have had 4 other people agree with what I am saying and not one has agreed with you, but you're sticking to your guns. You want it all to come down to a single, over-simplified question and that question isn't the entire point of the conversation. 

To flip it: Do you think a ninja should be able to use JUST those things and win?

1 minute ago, Trick said:

The reason I am expanding onto the question is that your question isn't just a yes or no question. You WANT me to answer it so you can say you're right, but the question is more complex than that. Quoting others to try to make me look like I don't know what I am saying won't win you this either. You want it all to come down to a single, over-simplified question and that question isn't the entire point of the conversation. 

To flip it: Do you think a ninja should be able to use JUST those things and win?

But I'm quoting you lol.

To answer your question, Yes because any classes with those abilities can lol. If you change what happened in this log you're making a big change across FL because many classes share those same skills. I don't mind having this conversation in my other pk's where I have to use those tactics where we both probably agree on things. But at this period I think I've proved my point. 

@Archbishop MonkNinjas can't steal, place traps, use 4th attack/riposte, or bash lock opponents. Thieves and Warriors are exceptionally offensive beasts in the right hands. I'm not sure what you're trying to say?

Mordred

Anonymous poster hash: d7742...0f8