Lag Attack Compounding

I have thought of ways to fix the whole lag-locking problem for a long time. I find it rather insanely stupid that classes with lag abilities can win certain fights with 1 command.

Bashlocking, Vampirelocking, Saderlocking, Triplocking, Grapplelocking, Bodyslamlocking. It's all garbage and cheap tricks to get a kill. There is 0 skill required and it makes some classes next to useless to even try to play or be viable in pk for long-term. Try to argue the point, but it is pointless. Yeah some classes should have a weakness to others, but being laglocked should not be any class weakness.

This is what I came up with:

I think all forms of lag should be compoundable to a point then you cannot be lagged by it again for a cooldown, like 0-1 ticks. Not a long time but long enough to get a flee in.

Ideas for each: Bash, Vampirelock, Saderlock, and Bodyslamlock - 3 lags then a 0-1 tick CD.

Trip, Grapple - Since they are weaker lags - 5 lags then 0-1 tick CD.

This would make it so a lag-lock death is must less likely from the get go. I find it nuts that a warrior/zerker can bashlock a smaller sized fighting class for 10-15 rounds till the person dies from the actual damage of bash/bodyslam. It would add a bit of an element of challenge for those classes. A little more for warriors especially, but is lag-locking the only tactic for melee lag classes? If so, obviously there is a problem with those classes then.

Opinions?

shrug No offense, dude, but I have not been laglocked in a long, long, long, LONG time.

And I am quite possibly one of the worst PK'ers here.

EDIT: And don't forget about pets while you're thinking about lag lock.

EDIT2: And chakras. And Air Thrash.

That's just a bad argument. You need to get out more often if you haven't been lag-locked in a long time. Plenty of people out there do it. I won't call out names cause that's not what this post is for. It's for making classes like Bards, Ninjas, Thieves, Rangers, Paladins, and DKs not able to be simply locked in combat to death without getting a single skill through. And there have been PLENTY of us, and some REALLY strong ones too that it's happened to lately. I hate to name drop, but I have experienced Heiku(who everyone knows was VERY strong) being locked to death by a couple people. He had pets...So they don't do very much obviously.

And as far as pets go, I think their lag should compound too.

Chakras and Air thrash no, cause Chakras are kinda needed for a monk to be viable in the killing part, and air thrash is required to have a chance to trip. But the triplocking loop should get a cooldown.

LOL.

I just got lag locked by a fire giant berserker, enlarged. Yes, I was mounted. Yes, I had several cabal spells up.. and I don't think it had anything to do with my connection (although, I would have seen him coming and could have avoided it). I think I got lag-locked for 20+ rounds.

shrug No offense, dude, but I have not been laglocked in a long, long, long, LONG time.

And I am quite possibly one of the worst PK'ers here.

EDIT: And don't forget about pets while you're thinking about lag lock.

EDIT2: And chakras. And Air Thrash.

It could also be because, no offense, you don't keep characters very long.. and most don't get to 50.. and did I mention longevity? It's bound to happen to newbs, bad PKers, elites, or anything else.

Doesn't mean I agree with the compound lagging though. I do agree it should be harder to bodyslam lock/bashlock/vampirelock. I bash locked an elf paladin praetorian (decked, by the way) with a fire giant berserker, not enlarged, too. All I did was bash bash bash bash and that was it. Made him delete too. :-(

I remember I used to lag-lock Festorvian's paladin, Dyendas, with my Ogre Warrior, Grom. He would be enlarged and mounted, and in better equipment than me, and I would just toss on a staff and straight up melee him while I lagged him, preventing him from curing or using flamestrike.

I agree that straight lag locks are incredibly frustrating, and I really don't know how to fix them - but I will say that they definitely happen, and they're definitely a pain in the ***.

I don't think you should have a bs cool down on a skill unless you start giving mages cool downs on spells they can spam to ruin a warrior.

There are others ways to go about this. You could make it to where each consecutive lag skill makes the next skill a little less likely to hit. It makes more sense to give a character either a better chance at avoiding it due to the fact that he KNOWS what is coming at him next or less of a chance for the character using the lag skill because he gets worn out.

For example: Fire giant bashes Elf four times, each time he has a little less chance of succeeding that bash. On the fifth bash he fails due to the stacking percent against his bash.

You know why I didn't get lag locked recently?

Protective shield and flight.

If you change HOW lag works you'll make anything with a protective shield/flight even stronger than it already is.

Perhaps instead of changing lag, you give a bonus to classes with the shield block/dual parry skill(s). Let that skill(s) give a bonus to reduce lag time.

Trying to negate lag lock for everything is a mistake.

Also, pointing out my past "flaws" does little to help remedy the situation. It doesn't allow me part in this discourse community. I want to help also, but can't do that if you believe my 8 years here mean nothing. I'm doing my best to look at this as objectively as I can and try to analyze all sides.

EDIT: Transformative learning......gotta love it.

Also, pointing out my past "flaws" does little to help remedy the situation. It doesn't allow me part in this discourse community. I want to help also, but can't do that if you believe my 8 years here mean nothing. I'm doing my best to look at this as objectively as I can and try to analyze all sides.

EDIT: Transformative learning......gotta love it.

Like I said, it wasn't meant to be offensive. All I know is that most of your characters are posted as deleted within 20 hours of hitting 50, or not even hitting 50. It's a known fact that you have TDP syndrome, bad!

I'm not hitting you for that. I just don't understand why the comment you made (which really doesn't make sense since you were a caster with protective shield anyway..) was well worth what the subject was here. I believe we were talking about classes that DIDN'T have protective shield. I've never been bash-locked either when I had access to protective shield, so that point is moot.

As for shield-block reducing bash? I don't necessarily think so. I believe if a caster/communer forgets protective shield, they DESERVE to be bash locked. Perhaps classes without protective shield, reducing lag on bash with a shield? I'm all for that, since usually using a shield (if you're not a protective shield class) is a nuisance.

And Valek, thank you for your 8 years. We appreciate you, even if you think we don't.

+1 for shield maneuverability as a new skill.

Like I said, it wasn't meant to be offensive. All I know is that most of your characters are posted as deleted within 20 hours of hitting 50, or not even hitting 50. It's a known fact that you have TDP syndrome, bad!

I'm not hitting you for that. I just don't understand why the comment you made (which really doesn't make sense since you were a caster with protective shield anyway..) was well worth what the subject was here. I believe we were talking about classes that DIDN'T have protective shield. I've never been bash-locked either when I had access to protective shield, so that point is moot.

+1 for shield maneuverability as a new skill.

No offense taken. Just noting that my past drains my credibility and then noting my new take on thinking/teaching.

My point in waiting to reveal the protective shield part was to see if anyone would hit on what I was posing as a problem without asking the question. We can see the issue with lag lock on non-pts classes, but what would a change do to classes with pts?

Anyways, good luck, and don't forget how hard ninjas/thieves/bards get screwed by lag lock. Even if they do get hide.

EDIT: I'm way tired....2010-2001 = 9 years....blushes

I dont see a problem. In 700+hrs of playing philantees I never had one instance when I was lagged from start to finish. I fought some very tough giant/ogre warriors (alot of these wielding the Arctron), I fought storm giant saders, I fought demon DK's. Masokant lagged me for some substational periods, but that was before I started making use of all possible measures to help prevent against lag lock (enlarge, etc etc).

When it comes to getting lag locked, it only pays dividends if you can outdamage them. I never managed to lag lock an elf paladin from start to finish. Ninjas and thieves are probably in the worst boat when it comes to getting lag locked, they dont have as much meelee as the classes that can lag lock them. However, they also get hide, so (in general) its their choice to decide and they must understand the risks.

If a skill is to lower the chances of being lag-locked it should be dodge. Obviously.

Lag is fine. If it bothers you, play a class that has protective shield. Thank god for bash/bodyslam/trip/charge/etc.. otherwise we'd all be falcon eye ninjas and halfling thieves.

If a skill is to lower the chances of being lag-locked it should be dodge. Obviously.

It does.

And so does being a thief.

For me, even worse than Bash Lag is lag that goes through protective shield -> Mino Charge.

getting lag locked?

increase your AC

increase your size

haste yourself

keep your Dex up.

and above ALL

do NOT spam commands. I have had several times when I bash someone and right before my next bash lands they kick dirt. This was their flee opportunity, wasted.

of course if your a CC you have NO excuse, maintain protective shield and fly at all times. If it gets removed by a haymaker or soemthing, flee and refresh it.

Apparently, if you don't want to be lag-locked you better be a long-standing player. Or do newbies all know where to get enlarge and...haste? Everyone can easily haste themselves apparently? I agree with Jedi-Donkey on this. Certain classes really are one trick ponies in many cases. And I HAVE been lag-locked. Fight someone who lags you with a charmie who lags too and see how well that goes. Also, maybe if we don't reveal who our characters are people won't just automatically disagree with our opinions. It seems many of us are like opposing political parties where we just shoot down someone's idea without even offering a solution of our own. Also, why is it always well if you do something for these classes, the other classes need something? We're talking about classes who can be lag-locked, why would the one's with protective shield have to get something out of it too?

Because... if you just arbitrarily add to a handful of classes, then you have unbalanced the equation. If you lessen the value of protective shield, you lessen the value of protective shield using classes. If you buff thieves and ninjas, you weaken everyone else. Just because you managed to get yourself laglocked... and honestly... you almost have to TRY to get yourself completely locked down if you aren't getting melee'd to all hell.

Let's take a look at zerks... my options are roar, headbutt, haymaker... or just lag you completely out. Well... if I am just crushing you into a fine powder, I don't really need my debuffs... I need to keep you there. The fact that my giant zerk is vuln to all mental spells... has crap dex... and is about as smart as a gnawed on pebble... yeah... that in no way balances the fact that I can lock down your tiny little halfling thief. Enlarge yourself... force me to use up my enlarge sources... or you know... hide... either way.

Look at the broader picture. Of course anyone can find some exception or specific instance in which things can be viewed in a certain light. Where do you get the idea I'm talking about something so specific as a halfling thief? I'm talking classes without protective shield in general. Now I usually don't participate in these back and forths with people, but when I see a good idea just being hounded I have to debate it.

So, all this talk about Balance?

Does anyone truly believe all classes are balanced? I should take a poll.

Let's see Krins, your berserker doesn't come with Sanctuary but yet a paladin does. So then if you quaff a vial and have sanctuary does that mean it's no longer balanced between you and the paladin? Is balance taking into consideration any possible potions/herbs you can use?

While I agree that it's annoying as hell to deal with lag... having played a few paladins to 50, I've actually grown an appreciation for the tactics involved in dealing with bash-like skills. It's not something that ever destroyed me on its own... it was something that I had to take into consideration when sizing up what I needed to do to prep for my opponent, and if I prepped correctly and used the right strategies, it never stopped me from winning the fight (on the rare times I didn't prep correctly, yes, lag alone was what killed me - but that's my fault, just like going without saves and only a mediocre hit/dam against a mage is my fault).

EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is that I'm very torn on what my verdict is on this topic. On the one hand, I don't like the idea of strategies designed entirely around the premise of "prevent your opponent from inputting a command for as long as possible." On the other, I appreciate the strategies involved in dealing with preventing your opponent from doing that to you - in a large part for the reason that once you learn to stop a warrior or zerk from being able to laglock you, particularly on a paladin, there is really nothing they can do to you anymore. You will either win, or fight them off - they will not kill you.

Let's see Krins, your berserker doesn't come with Sanctuary but yet a paladin does. So then if you quaff a vial and have sanctuary does that mean it's no longer balanced between you and the paladin? Is balance taking into consideration any possible potions/herbs you can use?

The paladin how-ever can get buffs like frenzy that the berserker has.

not the best example.

What classes specifically are you talking about here JH? Rogues? Rogues have a vulnerability to bash because, frankly, they are supposed to not get involved in heavy combat by their current design.

The other bash vuln classes...zerk's warrior's who can bash themselves and rangers who are supposed to have the damage output to discourage. Monks have balance, and BLM''s have weaver.

haste may be difficult to obtain, though high AC is not that difficult.

A newer player just has to seek out solutions in game to the problem of being bash, trip-locked.

There are others ways to go about this. You could make it to where each consecutive lag skill makes the next skill a little less likely to hit. It makes more sense to give a character either a better chance at avoiding it due to the fact that he KNOWS what is coming at him next or less of a chance for the character using the lag skill because he gets worn out.

This is the best idea IMO.