Standards for cabal promotions

1 minute ago, Lexi said:

I don't know. I have this feeling of setting down very specific, very clear requirements as something that will hamper creativity and funnel everyone in a cabal towards the same behaviour. If I know that I need to make 5 sales as a Merchant or whatever, I'll do just that, and not try to bribe the Imm/Elders or send journals/notes about setting up a burlesque enterprise in Tarandue etc.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I know I've set standards with My Elders.  Ziviz made sure you fought and defended our home as Elder.  Ulms trusted me to do that.  I told him when I thought someone should get promoed.  You needed 5 Heads as Puerilaug and some serious RP into the plot we had going with my Syndi.  If you're not speaking to your Elders and on the same page, then you need to work extra hard to circumvent them.  Maybe this is why some people wait longer.  If you feel you've been snubbed.  Send the scroll as I suggested.

1 hour ago, Izzzzy said:

Why are you in the Cabal if you can't do what the ELDERS of the Cabal and Leaders need.  Sounds to me you want the Cake, before you actually bake!

I have often seen cabal Elders who have one view of the direction of the Cabal while others think another way.  I played a halfling bard named Thren who became the Herald Leader and I tried my best to turn Herald into more than just a patsy for the other cabals.   I mention this because I faced a lot of opposition from other cabals AS WELL as internally with people saying that Herald is suppose to remain neutral, not fight and pretty much be the whipping boys of the rest of the cabals.  I also mention this because my very ideas of the cabal did NOT line up with the former Elders, but I pushed hard and kept trying and was rewarded for doing so.

This is why I agree  that clear direction like what Gifnab pointed out is a good thing.  C.R.A.P is a great way of expressing it, lol (silly gnome).  However, some cabals reward more for Aptitude and resiliance than Cooperation and performance.  You don't need a Herald to be a PK monster, but if they can't write a note your going to have problems.  This is why it I enjoy when the cabal Imm interacts with you so you get a clear picture of  what they are looking for in their cabal.

There already are a set of standards. Pretty sure you have to defend and attack vendetta people. Pretty sure you have to defend and retrieve standards. Pretty sure you have to send and defend against raids. Those are all standards that have to be met that we all know. 

There is that god-awful timer in your score that is there that I hate so much. There are a set amount of challenges that have to be met as a WM. There are certain RP points for E/L.

These are the bare minimums that we have to meet right? So, what if you’re above the minimums and get noticed? You’ll likely be promoted ahead of your peers. Nothing says you can’t be but nothing says you will be. Nothing says you “deserve” anything either. 

There is also, and I will paraphrase, the tax of time that we all have to pay to get what we want in game. Whether that be q-thing, T/E/L, getting in the cabal. You gotta pay the tax, sometimes it’s higher and sometimes it’s lower. 

My advice is to have patience and if you think you deserve something you don’t have, ask. If you don’t ask and don’t get, it’s your own fault. We’re all, mostly, adults.

I don't wannt be funny, but I feel like in my  cabal you can get Promo'd pretty easy with the right effort. 

If anything isn't going your way, I can guarantee you that you're the issue ;)

#oneimmortalsopinion

EDIT: Its also funny that we want more player run cabal input. As soon as that happens then there is an issue. Do you think the E/L spots happen by accident? Its because I believe the player - with their own RP twist on whatever - can be trusted enough to run it without my input.

2 minutes ago, Ulmusdorn said:

I don't wannt be funny, but I feel like in my  cabal you can get Promo'd pretty easy with the right effort. 

If anything isn't going your way, I can guarantee you that you're the issue ;)

#oneimmortalsopinion

Could you go into what "effort" means?

Logging hours, being actually active? Fighting bad match ups, fighting higher ranks? Involved rp, I think that's what this whole post is about, just more transparency.

My point isnt people not doing things and still wanting promos. My point is that there are semi regular cases of people doing everything the cabal could want, and slipping through the cracks. That is all.. This is not in an effort to say that imms ignore people, this is solely my opinion based on the fact many characters HAVE slipped through the cracks. Imms bust their ass, but they ARE human, and mistakes happen. You do not believe they happen, look up most of my deletion threads, you will see AT LEAST two where it comes out that I was not doing things wrong, I just was not being looked at for varying reasons. Standardizing promotions lets OTHER imms who observe you be able to verify that yes, you have met all requirements to be promoted. It is not a thread for pity promotions, auto promotions etc. It is a mechanic to ensure that DESERVING characters who are working HARD are rewarded.

Exactly what your suggesting. 

Also following cabal policy and supporting the organisation as a whole. There is lots of room for disagreement - thats how we achieve positive change - however there is no room for rudeness or insubordination for a superior.

IMO a cabal Elder/Leader has been put there for a reason. They answer to MUCH higher standards than anyone else in my cabal. If you F up as an E/L in Watcher... You might find yourself back M to start learning again sooner than you'd like.

1 minute ago, 'tarako said:

My point isnt people not doing things and still wanting promos. My point is that there are semi regular cases of people doing everything the cabal could want, and slipping through the cracks. That is all.. This is not in an effort to say that imms ignore people, this is solely my opinion based on the fact many characters HAVE slipped through the cracks. Imms bust their ass, but they ARE human, and mistakes happen. You do not believe they happen, look up most of my deletion threads, you will see AT LEAST two where it comes out that I was not doing things wrong, I just was not being looked at for varying reasons. Standardizing promotions lets OTHER imms who observe you be able to verify that yes, you have met all requirements to be promoted. It is not a thread for pity promotions, auto promotions etc. It is a mechanic to ensure that DESERVING characters who are working HARD are rewarded.

Sorry 'T you'll have to be more specific. I can only comment on my own cabal which I feel like I've got a pretty good handle on.

Even if the Imm turns over leadership to a mort for whatever reason. That mort should make promo requirements known for the exact same reason. If you want me to collect heads, and RP, and I KNOW that there is no crack to slip between. If you want me to write a million tomes for the library, sweet. If you want me to cap X criminals, or propose a law, badass. I just want people to have a clear direction to go for promotions. That is not to say that is the ONLY way to get a promotion. It just gives a basic direction that is in line with cabal leadership for people to follow is all.

Just now, Ulmusdorn said:

Exactly what your suggesting. 

Also following cabal policy and supporting the organisation as a whole. There is lots of room for disagreement - thats how we achieve positive change - however there is no room for rudeness or insubordination for a superior.

IMO a cabal Elder/Leader has been put there for a reason. They answer to MUCH higher standards than anyone else in my cabal. If you F up as an E/L in Watcher... You might find yourself back M to start learning again sooner than you'd like.

Cabal policy at least in terms to help watcher is a bit outdated. /Shrug

1 minute ago, Ulmusdorn said:

Sorry 'T you'll have to be more specific. I can only comment on my own cabal which I feel like I've got a pretty good handle on.

Seviks, and Gilthok. Both fell through the cracks for varying and VALID reasons. Those reasons where not brought to light until AFTER I posted deletion threads out of frustration. It turns out that I was doing exactly the things I needed to be doing, but there where completely understandable, and valid reasons I hadn't been promoted. It is still a result of me falling between the cracks. Had there been a standardized system that other imms could also weigh in on I would not have slipped through the way I had. That is all I am suggesting. A safety net that players who are deserving of promotions can rely on if all else fail. This is not a knock at imms, this is not a thread about ME getting promotions. It is a general idea with the intent of preventing chars from being stuck at V with no direction. That is all I am suggesting. Don't hand it out, don't automate it. Just implement a procedure that people can easily understand, and the entire staff can readily apply to any character across any cabal. If Anume sees that Aegreus has been performing perfectly in line with what Eledhwen wants out of T, she can drop a DM saying as much. If Gifnab sees a Syndi going hard, and terrorizing, he can send steam powered smoke signals to a network of watchtowers to let Syndi leadership know, if Zoichan sees a pandy scheming at a superb level twisting people without them ever knowing, he can speak up. This was never about pity promos or handouts.

1 minute ago, 'tarako said:

Seviks, and Gilthok. Both fell through the cracks for varying and VALID reasons. Those reasons where not brought to light until AFTER I posted deletion threads out of frustration. It turns out that I was doing exactly the things I needed to be doing, but there where completely understandable, and valid reasons I hadn't been promoted. It is still a result of me falling between the cracks. Had there been a standardized system that other imms could also weigh in on I would not have slipped through the way I had. That is all I am suggesting. A safety net that players who are deserving of promotions can rely on if all else fail. This is not a knock at imms, this is not a thread about ME getting promotions. It is a general idea with the intent of preventing chars from being stuck at V with no direction. That is all I am suggesting. Don't hand it out, don't automate it. Just implement a procedure that people can easily understand, and the entire staff can readily apply to any character across any cabal. If Anume sees that Aegreus has been performing perfectly in line with what Eledhwen wants out of T, she can drop a DM saying as much. If Gifnab sees a Syndi going hard, and terrorizing, he can send steam powered smoke signals to a network of watchtowers to let Syndi leadership know, if Zoichan sees a pandy scheming at a superb level twisting people without them ever knowing, he can speak up. This was never about pity promos or handouts.

Careful, logic is a scary thing to shout out here in these barren lands.

7 minutes ago, 'tarako said:

Even if the Imm turns over leadership to a mort for whatever reason. That mort should make promo requirements known for the exact same reason. If you want me to collect heads, and RP, and I KNOW that there is no crack to slip between.

Why? The whole point of having characters with such intensive RP and personalities is so that we get varied circumstances? 

Some peoples idea of success is killing every single living Tribunal and crapping on their corpses. Others will be to work together with the Empire to reach a joint answer to the plight of Gaia.  Both aren't technically wrong but will result in VERY different requirements from an Elder? 

The Elder/Leader has the right to shape the cabal into the image they would like. The Immortal is the guide/enforcer to ensure they don't stray too far from the ideology of the cabal. 

5 minutes ago, Atticus said:

Cabal policy at least in terms to help watcher is a bit outdated. /Shrug

I didn't realise we had a cabal policy lol. Read above.

3 minutes ago, Atticus said:

Careful, logic is a scary thing to shout out here in these barren lands.

We don't need this. You have received your only warning.

My point is I WAS meeting every requirement to be Trusted, but because my imm directly was not observing it I was not promoted. I want to safeguard against those scenarios

8 minutes ago, 'tarako said:

Don't hand it out, don't automate it. Just implement a procedure that people can easily understand, and the entire staff can readily apply to any character across any cabal. If Anume sees that Aegreus has been performing perfectly in line with what Eledhwen wants out of T, she can drop a DM saying as much. If Gifnab sees a Syndi going hard, and terrorizing, he can send steam powered smoke signals to a network of watchtowers to let Syndi leadership know, if Zoichan sees a pandy scheming at a superb level twisting people without them ever knowing, he can speak up. This was never about pity promos or handouts.

This happens already. So all I can say is sorry it wasn't picked up properly for you. This is an example of the system failing despite us trying to make it more robust by 'covering each other'. In these instances you make a great 'case' for how we can actually work on something that will improve the system to where this doesn't happen.

2 minutes ago, 'tarako said:

My point is I WAS meeting every requirement to be Trusted, but because my imm directly was not observing it I was not promoted. I want to safeguard against those scenarios

See above.

2 minutes ago, 'tarako said:

My point is I WAS meeting every requirement to be Trusted, but because my imm directly was not observing it I was not promoted. I want to safeguard against those scenarios

Okay I don't want this to be harsh.  Were you really?  Or did you just think you were?  I know a situation where you did some shady stuff, and no one wants to be called out on their stuff.  I respected your characters, but when you came on I had to be very careful of some things you'd be likely to do.  Did you speak to your imm?  Did you send notes Via the Forums?  I don't have answers to these questions, what I do know is IVE NEVER HAD A PROBLEM GETTING TRUSTED.  The One time it was an issue I ended up getting kicked from the Cabal and got hunted and became the ELDER of another CABAL........RP I did not plan, but ran with.

You can sit here and say it should be revealed with an exact plan your character needs, but how will that make your NEW character special from the LAST.  Thats what makes forsaken great.  Every character is DIFFERENT.  I don't want a cookie cutter way of getting promotions.  Thats not real life.  You can't kiss your bosses ass at work and expect a promotion because you did this and that.  Promotions come when they're desereved.

I see where you're going Izzy but this is the first post of yours I dont agree with.

The whole point is that he wants clarity to KNOW he is hitting those things.

The secondary point is that he doesn't want to ahve to come to some OOC medium to check he's doing OK.

We both will easily agree that 'tarako's level of play is easily T or above, so realistically he faced an issue with the system rather than his own play.

Of course I cannot comment on this entirely as I am unsure if he did something particularly stupid like saving Knight lives as a Nexus etc etc. I can only generalise.

Read the deletion threads for Gilthok, and Seviks @Izzzzy, I will take screenshots of the prayer posts about it where imms say flat out "oh, my bad I missed that" or "I have been super busy" These are COMPLETELY valid reasons from them, and I do not want to feel like I am taking a shot at staff for it. They are all awesome, except Lloth, and do an amazing job of creating a great world for us to act out our chars in. They are also human, with real lives, jobs, families etc. Things happen, and I would never in a million years demand that anything related to FL take first chair over their real lives. That is not even close to fair, and I do not believe it should be that way anyway. A standardized public system takes out the guess work of "why am I not T". It also allows OTHER imms to promote if it is necessary.

2 minutes ago, Ulmusdorn said:

The whole point is that he wants clarity to KNOW he is hitting those things.

The secondary point is that he doesn't want to ahve to come to some OOC medium to check he's doing OK.

We both will easily agree that 'tarako's level of play is easily T or above, so realistically he faced an issue with the system rather than his own play.

I know for a fact @'tarako is a vet.  The whole point is that nothing in this game is cookie cutter.  Thats what makes it different.  If you do the things I said in my first post you will be Trusted!